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Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

bbc.com

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Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#291

Post by kradeelav »

hannasanarion wrote: post #247
kradeelav wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just this past weekend a disabled animator was blacklisted from the industry because an ex-friend objected to their NSFW drawings on a twitter handle (completely separate from their professional handle). The number of death threats were also an immense psychological toll, and a bit more than just "being yelled at" (I am open to the fact there is a fuzzy continuum between the two). Regardless - "some companies won't w…

Are you suggesting that blacklists are a new phenomenon? "cancel culture" has always existed. The only thing that is changing is that who is "cancelled" is no longer chosen by TV producers and news editors (ie, white men), but democratically by self-directed popular discourse. In 2003 the Dixie Chicks said at a show in london, "We don't want this war, we're ashamed the President of the United States is from Texas". I…

To the first line: not at all, we'd both most likely point to Hollywood's blacklisting in the McCarthy era as one of many examples.

To the second point: I would disagree in the sense that (a) it is dangerous to conflate 'people in a position of power actively using their established power to censor others' and 'mere disagreement'. Censorship becomes censorship when there is active harassment. (b) The latter example of marginalized people on twitter disagreeing isn't such - until the threats are stated. And there is a lot of horizontal violence that exists on that platform.

The way I'd personally reframe this issue of (self)-censorship is that we're in a moral panic wave - certain platforms have made it incredibly easy for creators to be mobbed if they step out of acceptable discourse, regardless of their politics.

(1) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_panic

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#292

Post by inglor_cz »

A4ET8a8uTh0 wrote: post #96
throw10123213 wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Communism was also like this. People has the public persona, the party tasks, things they had to do and say. Then they went home and listened to Radio Free Europe and talked with select people what they really had on their mind or used coded language to transmit messages. What I hope this achieves is a parallel society and when it's big enough there will be some public battles.

This. And you only spoke political jokes to really close friends.

I was 11 when Communism fell in my country.

By that time, kids knew perfectly well what to say in school, what to say among close friends and who of their colleagues was a snitch.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#293

Post by throwaway894345 »

throwawaygh wrote: post #162
read_if_gay_ wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is cancel culture too. No one upthread made this about political sides. Why are you?

> No one upthread made this about political sides AFAICT every example in the article. I always assume that the contents of the article are upthread because I always assume people read the article before commenting :) Aside from the article, my impression is that "cancel culture" has a more specific meaning than you seem to prescribe. One on hand, we never called it "cancel culture" when a teacher is fired for being…

I think "cancel culture" definitely has some left-wing connotations, but I think that's because it came into existence at a time when the left was doing the majority of the canceling. In the aughts, "canceling" was mostly a conservative thing (usually criticizing the war effort) and it was much less egregious (if only because social media barely existed at the time). One prominent, egregious example of conservative cancellation from the time was the Dixie Chicks.

So yeah, "cancellation" has some left-wing connotations, but it's not something that only the left can do. Further, there absolutely are hypocrites who criticize "cancel culture", but who happily try to cancel people they don't like. Hypocrites are bad, but there are still lots and lots of principled critics of cancel culture (indeed, I'm pretty sure most of the Harper's letter signatories are left-of-center). That there are hypocrites doesn't validate cancel culture.

Also, if you're upset about the left-wing connotations, the proper response is not to try to legitimize cancel culture, but rather to persuade your political associates to behave better for sake of the brand.

TL;DR: Canceling is bad no matter who does it; recently it's mostly been the woke left who have been doing it so it does have some political connotations; sometimes people are disingenuous in criticizing "cancel culture".

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#294

Post by mywittyname »

renewiltord wrote: post #50
runawaybottle wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cancel culture scared the ever living shit out of everyone, even everyday people. Whether you like it or not, it got every male in the workplace to not even breathe in the direction of women you work with. The movement permeated through normal life fast . It was extremely efficient in bringing forth the necessary changes. I have no problem with using the chainsaw as needed, but we need to careful about when we use it…

I don't think the "fear of women" thing is real. At least it isn't real in SF where I've worked for the last eight years.

It's a real thing among the group of guys who exhibit creepy/abusive behavior towards women. They used to be able to get away with it, now they realize they may not be able to anymore.

They aren't so much afraid of women, as they are afraid of consequences for their actions.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#295

Post by sudosysgen »

skrebbel wrote: post #277
sudosysgen wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been people getting cancelled in very large number for thousands of years. Crucially, nowadays, you can still communicate when cancelled. Perhaps to a smaller audience, but this is a necessity because of how human social interactions work.

This is just an awful argument. It's basically "things used to be worse, so you shouldn't say it's still bad".

What? That is an awful strawman. The question is whether cancel culture is a new phenomenon, or just a continuation of human social nature.

I'd suggest you read the entire thread to get context on the point of contention.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#296

Post by inglor_cz »

c06n wrote: post #167
standardUser wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no lack of dissenting opinions to be found outside of the mainstream (the same place where punk once existed exclusively). Cancel culture is primarily a problem with mainstream/pop culture. The "underground" today is more vast and diverse than it has ever been.

What's underground today? Genuinely curious.

People with a Parler account.

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#297

Post by [deleted] »

dash2 wrote: post #203
RobLach wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. The idea that we're in a dark age of thought is purely rhetorical and only serves to frame a narrative that further amplifies ideas that would never had a chance to propagate before the information era. Furthermore, we are living in a time of such…

"Dark age of thought" would be excessive (and is maybe a straw man). But there's plenty of people being cancelled: https://www.afaf.org.uk/the-banned-list/ https://sutherlandhousebooks.com/who-cancel/

[deleted]

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#298

Post by _0ffh »

jerf wrote: post #196
refenestrator wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's interesting is that heretical liberals have the most to fear in this environment. MAGA people can't be cancelled, and it's a badge of honor if attempted. But well-meaning unorthodox liberals really have to watch themselves.

Yes, one of the worst and most dangerous places to be is just outside the orthodoxy. This is not a comment about 2021; it is a historical pattern. Whether or not it's worse than being directly opposed to the orthodoxy is something I'd say changes between times and places, but there have definitely been times where its more dangerous to be just outside then full-on opposed. Those who are neither directly opposed, nor…

>>Freud spoke of the narcissism of small differences, saying that “it is precisely communities with adjoining territories, and related to each other in other ways as well, who are engaged in constant feuds and ridiculing each other”.https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/09/30/i-can-tolerate-anythin...

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#299

Post by zimpenfish »

dash2 wrote: post #203
RobLach wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hardly so. There's ample evidence that the current is the greatest opportunity for dissenting thought and opinion to have massive reach without much consequence or effort. The idea that we're in a dark age of thought is purely rhetorical and only serves to frame a narrative that further amplifies ideas that would never had a chance to propagate before the information era. Furthermore, we are living in a time of such…

"Dark age of thought" would be excessive (and is maybe a straw man). But there's plenty of people being cancelled: https://www.afaf.org.uk/the-banned-list/ https://sutherlandhousebooks.com/who-cancel/

> But there's plenty of people being cancelled:

That second link is telling - they list 9 people; one lost a book deal, one had a book withdrawn, one had to switch to smaller publisher, and one lost an honorary charity position. How is this being cancelled?

Re: Sir Kazuo Ishiguro warns of young authors self-censoring out of 'fear'

#300

Post by solosoyokaze »

sudosysgen wrote: post #283
solosoyokaze wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Leftist actually does have meaning. Neo-liberalism is a right wing ideology built on imperialism and capitalism. To conflate the two is dishonest.

I agree with you. But there is a lot of leftist infighting, especially between MLs, Anarchists, LibSocs, DemSocs, AnComs, etc... And there is also of neoliberals that pretend to be leftist, yes, so called "Radlibs". Then there are leftists that accuse other leftists that aren't of their same brand of being liberals, for example MLs calling anarchists liberals because they admit markets, or anarchists calling MLs capi…

I don't totally disagree with you, but the leftist infighting is of a very different nature than left vs. the establishment. For one, those on the left don't actually have the power to cancel each other. The platforms are owned by the neo-liberals, which direct the canceling through who they allow to speak their mind and who they don't.

> And there is also of neoliberals that pretend to be leftist, yes, so called "Radlibs".

These are the people doing the canceling (both to the left and the right of them). It's worth nothing the distinction as it's this group with the power.

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