On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#51

Post by notahacker » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:41 AM UTC

notauser wrote: post #36

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #5

As another ex-poor person: some of this is OK and some of it doesn't really ring true. E.g. > That’s the drop-off you experience at the lower price levels - there’s nothing between “This is a tiny but acceptable apartment” and “Slum apartments in stab-ville”. I don't think this is true, and why would it be? Unless you're in an area where the housing market is cliffed for some legislative or regulatory reason. But mos…

There is definitely non-linear pricing in the London housing market as one example. When I was last looking - Studio apartments and one bed room apartments rented for similar amounts, and so did two beds and three beds. But the price jump from one bed to two bed was much larger than any of the other jumps. You can speculate on many reasons why this might be the case (smallest size apartment for a family in the city,…

> But the price jump from one bed to two bed was much larger than any of the other jumps.

That price jump isn't particularly surprising given London's one bed flats are competing against a vast number of individual rooms in shared properties rented out (which is regarded as a normal living arrangement in London, including for professionals, somewhat older people and to an extent couples). Obviously people who need an extra bedroom aren't really in that market, and the second bedroom is also easily [sub]let out separately.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#52

Post by carmen_sandiego » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:48 AM UTC

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #47

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The labor market isn't fully efficient but I don't believe it's "almost entirely decoupled" from the value employees provide. If you provide with certainty $100k/y of value and your employer pays you $30k/y, there'd be no shortage of entities willing to bid up that price. Who wouldn't take profit within their risk tolerance? What mechanism do you think would prevent this from happening?

• Barriers-to-entry – e.g., skills, ethical injunctions, psychological torment, qualifications… • Job security – some people are just too poor to go on the job market for a few weeks or months, meaning they don't have much leverage to get their employer to increase their pay… • Perverse incentives – some jobs are all about destroying value , e.g. loan sharks, most of the advertising industry… http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/…

> • Barriers-to-entry – e.g., skills, ethical injunctions, psychological torment, qualifications…

If these reduce the value you provide then that's as designed. How can you provide value without skills? How can you provide value by _not_ doing things you find unethical? These aren't inefficiencies of the market for labor, they're facets of it working exactly as desired.

> • Job security – some people are just too poor to go on the job market for a few weeks or months, meaning they don't have much leverage to get their employer to increase their pay…

Do you... quit your job before you look for a new one? Increase in pay levels for lower skilled jobs is not really about individual cases, but the aggregate. If Profession X generates more value than the current pay level, that increases general demand for Profession X, and reduces the time needed to match up with a new employer. Sure there's some thresholding involved, but not enough to 'entirely decouple' price and value.

> • Perverse incentives – some jobs are all about destroying value, e.g. loan sharks, most of the advertising industry… http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8410489.stm (2009) has a short list.

Eh this is pretty hand-wavey stuff. Loan sharks don't _destroy_ value from an economic perspective. Nor does advertising. Nor does banking. Societal problems though they might have.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#53

Post by simiones » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:51 AM UTC

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #31

simiones wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> > a person’s pay is determined by how rare their skills are and how much demand there is for those skills. The value of their work doesn’t factor in as much > What's the value of a person's work that isn't just determined by the first part? What does the author think drives demand, if not the prospective value you provide to the various companies in the labor market? The value of your work is "how much money would…

I assume that when he talks about 'rarity' of skills he's talking about supply. Almost anyone can be a farm hand; supply is huge and individual workers are fungible. So wages are low. "how much money would the company lose if no one did the exact job I am doing" seems a bit of a moot point when it's not even close to being the case that no-one would do the job in question. _Expected_ value then approaches price paid…

Well, this is exactly what he explains as the reality, and I agree that this is how the job market works.

However, that's not to say that it is a good state of affairs, or that it is the only way things could work. In fact, the purpose of workers' unions is exactly to stop this kind of thinking, and it seems like this may once again start spreading a bit, given the recent movements in Amazon and other places.

The problem with this is that the company is using its leverage over workers to treat them as a commodity. If workers had more leverage, they could refuse the job unless they were paid a fair wage (the value of their work as I defined it above), but as it is, they are forced to compete with other workers since not working would see them and their families homeless and maybe even dying of hunger.

With the current state of affairs, the company owners end up extracting much more value from their workers as profit, often by deliberately fixing the wage market (as we saw with the illegal SV "no poaching" deal for tech workers), or at least by seeking to attain geographical monopoly status in it.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#54

Post by gambiting » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:53 AM UTC

ImaCake wrote: post #7

>while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back This looks insane to an Australian. I have moved house 4 times in the past 5 years and I have never not got all of my bond back. Some states here have a rule that the bond money is held by the state so that the landowner doesn't just take that money for themselves. How can the poor ever break the cy…

Same in UK. I have moved 8 times in the past 11 years and I always got my full deposit back.

Also yes, the entire article just screams "the experience of being poor....in America". From the lack of social net, to the absurd costs of insurance and healthcare. I don't mean to say that life elsewhere is all rosy and there are no problems at all, but I can't even imagine worrying about costs of health treatments - it's just a given you will get them and you won't pay anything. I guess it's part of the author's point - that some people don't realize how good they have it.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#55

Post by airhead969 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:54 AM UTC

They don't know the meaning of poor. And, who cares about some absolutely privileged, greedy, manipulative idiots who "can't live" on $200k/yr and take from people who make way less than them. Shame on them!

---

If you can count your money, you're poor.

If you can count your money and it fits in your pockets, you're very poor.

If you can count your money and it fits in your left pocket with room to spare, you're extremely poor.

If you're wondering whether to buy food or gas with the money you have left, you're broke.

If you wish you could buy food or gas, you're absolutely destitute.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#56

Post by gambiting » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:55 AM UTC

blackshaw wrote: post #15

ImaCake wrote: post #7

>while it’s normal to put down a month or two worth of rent as a security deposit, it’s much less normal to get it back This looks insane to an Australian. I have moved house 4 times in the past 5 years and I have never not got all of my bond back. Some states here have a rule that the bond money is held by the state so that the landowner doesn't just take that money for themselves. How can the poor ever break the cy…

Yeah, a bunch of things in this article strike me as very American (I'm British). No-one in the UK worries about not being able to afford healthcare if they're poor, nor do they need a car to get to the grocery store in under an hour (unless they live in an isolated home out in the countryside, which probably means they're rich, not poor.) There are many, many places you can live in the UK without needing a car to ge…

>>On the other hand, I find it laughable that this author describes a 900sqft apartment as "very small". 900sqft would be considered a decent-sized, mid-range apartment in London,

Yep, we actually bought a 3-bed house(not apartment) in UK, and the total space is 950sqft(about 90square metres). And that's not a small house around here by any measure. American houses are like their cars - absurdly large.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#57

Post by airhead969 » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 11:55 AM UTC

mudita wrote: post #29

I was poor for some time after deciding to quit my computer science phd for a career in art. I guess I still am compared to others, but it does not feel that way any more. When I was really poor, worrying about money and how to pay the next rent was a regular source of stress for me, which took quite a lot of emotional energy. Now I still have much lower income than people, who have regular well-paying jobs, but I do…

Ever slept in a bus station? I have, in the US. I went for 3 years without any healthcare, and then it took another 7 years and a lawyer (who took $16k USD) to get more permanent help.

One thing is for certain: with 99.99% of people, their friendliness (or meanness) is proportional to the size of your bank account.

If you want to know how people truly are, become actually poor, filthy, and seem depressed, then you will know their nature.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#58

Post by carmen_sandiego » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 12:00 PM UTC

simiones wrote: post #53

carmen_sandiego wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume that when he talks about 'rarity' of skills he's talking about supply. Almost anyone can be a farm hand; supply is huge and individual workers are fungible. So wages are low. "how much money would the company lose if no one did the exact job I am doing" seems a bit of a moot point when it's not even close to being the case that no-one would do the job in question. _Expected_ value then approaches price paid…

Well, this is exactly what he explains as the reality, and I agree that this is how the job market works. However, that's not to say that it is a good state of affairs, or that it is the only way things could work. In fact, the purpose of workers' unions is exactly to stop this kind of thinking, and it seems like this may once again start spreading a bit, given the recent movements in Amazon and other places. The pro…

I'm not sure it's ever going to be the case at the very bottom of the skill continuum that workers won't be seen as a commodity given just how replaceable they are to the company. For some jobs you could have your whole workforce strike, fire them, and replace them the next day with a minor blip in productivity. The only thing that stops that is regulation or wider organization than just that particular worker segment, neither of which seem forthcoming in the US, at least.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#59

Post by gambiting » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 12:01 PM UTC

choeger wrote: post #25

fallingknife wrote: post #6

I'm surprised he doesn't know not to pay rent for the last month and make them use the deposit for it. That's what I always did when I was poor. No way they're gonna evict you in 30 days, especially if they know you're leaving anyway. Also his car cost is way off: https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/cheapest-lease-deals

That came to my mind as well. If I don't expect the deposit back and cannot afford to claim it, let's just turn the tables and make them claim something from me .

Here in the UK that would destroy any chances of renting anything decent in the future. Any agency/landlord will always ask for references from your current landlord, if you dick them over like this you can forget ever renting something that isn't a slum where people don't care about references.

Also deposits are always(by law) held by a third party in escrow, and it's actually a bit of a pain to claim any money from that as a landlord, so it's really rare that people lose their deposits unless the place is absolutely wrecked.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#60

Post by skohan » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 12:01 PM UTC

airhead969 wrote: post #55

They don't know the meaning of poor. And, who cares about some absolutely privileged, greedy, manipulative idiots who "can't live" on $200k/yr and take from people who make way less than them. Shame on them! --- If you can count your money, you're poor. If you can count your money and it fits in your pockets, you're very poor. If you can count your money and it fits in your left pocket with room to spare, you're extr…

I always thought of “broke” as the transitory status of not having money, while “poor” is a socioeconomic status.

I.e. a university student could be too broke to buy beer before their next stipend comes in, but that doesn’t make them poor if they can still go home and drive mom & dad’s Tesla on the weekend.