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Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

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Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#11
post #3

Not defending BitCoin (I won't be buying any soon), but I think the author doesn't realized that BitCoins are divisible down to eight decimal places. It's difficult for me to imagine a currency which is so divisible being "hoarded to death".

The divisibility has no bearing on the hoarding. The hoarding comes from the expectation of increased value over time, not the number of decimal places. If you have something that you think is going to steadily appreciate in value over time, why sell it now?

There are natural limitations to how much people will save:

* When you're dead all your savings are worthless (to you), so your likely to spend most of them before then.

* Some consumption cannot be postponed: you need food, a roof over your head, transportation, etc.

* Time has value. For example, if you wait another 6 months the same amount of money (bitcoin or not) will buy you a better computer. This is likely to hold true in the foreseeable future. Still people do but computers (and phones, etc).

* There's opportunity cost: even if your savings increase in value over time, investing them in something could increase them even more.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#12
I still don't see a problem. Surely as long as someone (hoarders) really wants it, it has perceived value making it a viable currency. Everything else is just details & implementation. Most of which will sort itself out via supply & demand equilibrium or if its a technical detail via a clever programmer or two.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#13
post #5

I'm curious, does anyone know what fraction of dollars are "hoarded"?

Hoarding is relative. Whatever commodity has the highest velocity (most trades per day) is generally not considered hoarded.

Relative to dollars, nearly all commodities are hoarded, but that's because the entire money supply changes hands nearly 3 times a day on the currency markets (or at least used to). As bitcoin is backed by as much thin air as the other currencies, there is nothing to stop it's velocity from attaining the levels of the dollar.

Being as bitcoin is relatively new, its velocity is low; furthermore, as many vendors have not started accepting it, its velocity is further hampered.

The author suggests that it is mainly being used as a store of value, which is true. Any money that is not controlled by a government is generally a good store of value; and stores of value have their uses. Velocity is not everything.

It is worth noting, however, that throughout history "good money" (good stores of value) have always beaten "bad money" (bad stores of value) in the competition for velocity, all other factors being equal. The only place bitcoin has to catch up is in redeemability, otherwise it's suitability as a money is equal to the other fiat currencies. When it catches up there (and it will, since it obsoletes many taxes), expect it to really take off, unless governments start to get jealous and shove guns in everybody who tries to use it's faces.

Otherwise, most of his arguments are beaten by the infinite subdividability of digital currency.

I think what most of the critics of bitcoin don't realize is that soundness of a money is not dependent on it's backing or even how much is in circulation at any particular time. Who/what controls the issuance of the money is the most important factor; and the numerous hands on bitcoin assure things do not get out of hand.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#14
The article makes a series of well known criticisms, but there are a few issues with it.

1. If a BTC were to be worth $2M, you'd simply trade microcoins which would be worth $2. Or even nanocoins for micropayments.

2. Bitcoin's quasi-anonymous nature will be highly desirable to many people, including very large criminal organizations who'll definitely be moving those coins.

3. A large number of early adopters joined the movement because they believe in the ideal behind a p2p cryptocurrency. These people are not in it for the investment alone and will be willing to use it as a currency.

4. On paper, even the free software movement sounds idiotic. What kind of idiot would spend their time and resources to produce something for free? In practice, it works extremely well because not everyone is solely motivated by their best economical interest.

5. Few people will put all of their eggs in one basket. When the value of BTC stabilizes, investors who are happy with the valuation are likely to sell and cash in on the investment or diversify their investment through other currencies/speculations.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#15

The article makes a series of well known criticisms, but there are a few issues with it. 1. If a BTC were to be worth $2M, you'd simply trade microcoins which would be worth $2. Or even nanocoins for micropayments. 2. Bitcoin's quasi-anonymous nature will be highly desirable to many people, including very large criminal organizations who'll definitely be moving those coins. 3. A large number of early adopters joined…

Every single criticism of Bitcoin I've seen is based on the assumption that it will fail because it's not a fiat-based currency. They list Bitcoin's features as the reasons it will fail. They talk about the past 200 years of central banking and seem to forget the thousands of years of human economy before governmental central banking, when money was actually backed by a scarce resource.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#17
post #8
post #5

I'm curious, does anyone know what fraction of dollars are "hoarded"?

Approximately none, because dollars are inflationary by design (of the Fed), not deflationary like bitcoin (again, by design of its creators).

Exactly. Inflation prevents (in fact promotes the opposite of) hoarding. Hoarding dollars would be just as irrational as spending Bitcoins.

An example of something being hoarded today? Anything that is having its price run up. Gold, for instance.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#18
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The divisibility has no bearing on the hoarding. The hoarding comes from the expectation of increased value over time, not the number of decimal places. If you have something that you think is going to steadily appreciate in value over time, why sell it now?

There are natural limitations to how much people will save: * When you're dead all your savings are worthless (to you), so your likely to spend most of them before then. * Some consumption cannot be postponed: you need food, a roof over your head, transportation, etc. * Time has value. For example, if you wait another 6 months the same amount of money (bitcoin or not) will buy you a better computer. This is likely to…

When you're dead all your savings are worthless (to you), so your likely to spend most of them before then.

If that were true, why would there be so much debate around the estate tax? Warren Buffet is a rarity. Most people want to pass money down through generations rather than spend it as they near the end of their lives. Taxes on inheritance encourages spending and charitable giving.

Some consumption cannot be postponed: you need food, a roof over your head, transportation, etc.

Given. Probably not enough to avoid depression though.

Time has value. For example, if you wait another 6 months the same amount of money (bitcoin or not) will buy you a better computer. This is likely to hold true in the foreseeable future. Still people do but computers (and phones, etc)

You seem to be arguing for deflation. Given that I can wait and get a better computer there's even less incentive to spend it today. I remember a study that showed for a computationally intense problem (many years) you could finish sooner by waiting part of the time and buying a faster computer. That's even less incentive to move money around.

There's opportunity cost: even if your savings increase in value over time, investing them in something could increase them even more.

Not if the economy is depressed.

In sum, the natural limitations you site - even if they worked - are not enough to avoid depression. A small bit of inflation is a good thing. Think of a dollar/bitcoin/whatever as a unit of work and inflation as 'urgency'. :-)

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#19

The article makes a series of well known criticisms, but there are a few issues with it. 1. If a BTC were to be worth $2M, you'd simply trade microcoins which would be worth $2. Or even nanocoins for micropayments. 2. Bitcoin's quasi-anonymous nature will be highly desirable to many people, including very large criminal organizations who'll definitely be moving those coins. 3. A large number of early adopters joined…

Every single criticism of Bitcoin I've seen is based on the assumption that it will fail because it's not a fiat-based currency. They list Bitcoin's features as the reasons it will fail. They talk about the past 200 years of central banking and seem to forget the thousands of years of human economy before governmental central banking, when money was actually backed by a scarce resource.

The average human was far, far poorer 200+ years ago, in relative terms.

The fact is, modern banking and capitalism have created massive amounts of wealth for a vast proportion of the population. Evolution of our economic system has led to where we are now for a reason. It's not perfect, but we aren't going back to the days of measuring your net worth on a stick.

Every time we have a crash or downturn, people begin to under estimate how much we actually know about economics. It's a lot.

Re: Why Bitcoin Will Fail As A Currency

#20

The article makes a series of well known criticisms, but there are a few issues with it. 1. If a BTC were to be worth $2M, you'd simply trade microcoins which would be worth $2. Or even nanocoins for micropayments. 2. Bitcoin's quasi-anonymous nature will be highly desirable to many people, including very large criminal organizations who'll definitely be moving those coins. 3. A large number of early adopters joined…

Every single criticism of Bitcoin I've seen is based on the assumption that it will fail because it's not a fiat-based currency. They list Bitcoin's features as the reasons it will fail. They talk about the past 200 years of central banking and seem to forget the thousands of years of human economy before governmental central banking, when money was actually backed by a scarce resource.

Maybe we've been seeing different criticisms, but the ones I've seen don't just complain that it's not backed by fiat -- they complain that it's not backed by anything.
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