It sounds like rollback could be used to cheat by artificially delaying your outgoing network traffic: the other player has less time to respond. But I doubt I’m the first to get that idea.
How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
61–70 of 107 posts
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
You shouldn't be disappointed. Nothing has changed is overwhelmingly the correct answer. It is incredibly jarring to assume a remote player takes an action, display them taking that action, then roll back when you realize they didn't. From your local perspective, it looks like they blocked for a few frames, which makes you assume they're going to block, then they flash back to being defenseless, and your attack weird…
Yeah it probably is an optimal strategy (and certainly relative to return on investment). I didn't mean disappointment that the tech hadn't advanced, I meant that my expectations were set really high by the grandparent comment ("Neural networks? In 2006? Surely not! But it must be something really fancy, judging by all these flowcharts!" [0]) and by how they kept hyping up the "prediction algorithm" for half the arti…
Oh right, that makes sense. I was actually going to write a similar reply to the parent comment but got distracted.
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#63Does anyone know if rollback netcode works well in a 20+ player shooter game? I curious because the current craze of Battle Royals seems really taxing to the whole re-simulation of multiple frames within the window of a single frame.
Without being any less subtle, games like Apex Legends is known for really bad server performance, latency, and among other things.
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#64Does that article really end with: > Good netcode matters, period. So let’s talk about it. Because at that point I didn't read anything about netcode, except how important it is.
Allow 3rd party resources, it has visual aids and buttons.
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#65Does anyone know if rollback netcode works well in a 20+ player shooter game? I curious because the current craze of Battle Royals seems really taxing to the whole re-simulation of multiple frames within the window of a single frame. Without being any less subtle, games like Apex Legends is known for really bad server performance, latency, and among other things.
There's generally not all that much point to rollback-style netcode in first person shooters, because you can just run asynchronously and do client-side prediction. If the prediction was wrong, it doesn't matter that much: you might have missed a shot and they're not quite where you expected they were. In fighting games, that's completely infeasible, because each player's actions are completely determined by the previous ones: either I hit you, and I'm going to continue into a combo that's very timing specific, comparatively, or you blocked the hit, and I'm doing something completely different.
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#66It sounds like rollback could be used to cheat by artificially delaying your outgoing network traffic: the other player has less time to respond. But I doubt I’m the first to get that idea.
Not rolling back can be used to cheat too, by artifically delaying traffic while you're getting comboed to throw people's timing off.
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#67Does anyone know if rollback netcode works well in a 20+ player shooter game? I curious because the current craze of Battle Royals seems really taxing to the whole re-simulation of multiple frames within the window of a single frame. Without being any less subtle, games like Apex Legends is known for really bad server performance, latency, and among other things.
I'm a pretty avid Call of Duty fan and have been playing ther Battle Royale, Warzone, a lot lately.
Prior to this article, I've suspected there was some sort of predictive algorithm that helps make things smooth overall. I've noticed on a few occasions, I'll get shot by someone pre-firing a corner I haven't gone around yet (like sprinting to a corner to make a play). Several times, the kill cam has shown me fully around the corner for the other player.
I also have poor latency (my ISP routes poorly) and playing with friends that are geographically far - with servers even further away from me (though relatively close to them). It's a bummer that it happens, but I'm up to 200ms behind realtime. I suspect the game is predicting my movements - some of which put me in very bad positions, unintentionally.
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#68Does that article really end with: > Good netcode matters, period. So let’s talk about it. Because at that point I didn't read anything about netcode, except how important it is.
There are more pages, try clicking the next button at the bottom.
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#69This piece was really interesting. That you can hide network delays by building a “fake” model of the other player that replicates what a real player would do and rolling back when this prediction fails. So you can train some neural nets on what players do in such situations and you get a certain accuracy. And yet you can keep making this “fake” player better and better until it’s indistinguishable from fighting a hu…
I don't think those predictions are that sophisticated, maybe there is some Bayesian probability, but I can't see a neural net fitting inside a single frame. However, lots of progress has been made in using neural nets for training fully autonomous NPCs:
https://cns.utexas.edu/news/game-bots-pass-turing-test
"In order to most convincingly mimic as much of the range of human behavior as possible, the team takes a two-pronged approach. Some behavior is modeled directly on previously observed human behavior, while the central battle behaviors are developed through a process called neuroevolution, which runs artificially intelligent neural networks through a survival-of-the-fittest gauntlet that is modeled on the biological process of evolution."
Re: How fighting games use delay-based and rollback netcode (2019)
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
First, a good player can't be accurately predicted at all; the conclusion from game theory is direct and clear. This is a case where a strategy involving picking moves at random is superior to any deterministic strategy. Second, your rebuttal is not especially good support for the idea that we should be trying to solve the problem with a technology specifically designed to imitate humans.
How good are human players, by that metric?
That's a fair question. I know of related research showing that chimpanzees are much better at achieving the correct distribution of strategies in asymmetrical-payoff games than humans are. The obvious implication is that a typical human isn't that good at being unpredictable.
The distribution of people who enjoy playing fighting games will probably look somewhat different, though.