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Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

latimes.com

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Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#31

Post by gumby »

Notefor dang: this is from 2016 and should say (2016)

Seems like a lot of posture and innuendo without a substantive argument. I was hoping to read that Apple was cooperating with Chinese security forces but nothing is actually said on this topic. At least it does mention the removal of some apps relating to Tibet; since then Apple has done the same in HK. I don't know if they have done so in other countries (removed apps due to political pressure).

But the Chinese SKUs have the same security mechanisms as the US SKUs and there is no evidence that the FBI faces any greater or less challenges in accessing phone data.

Germany also has a "local data storage" requirement but I guess they aren't scary like China is.

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#32

Post by CharlesW »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #27
lambdasquirrel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What good would it do for anyone if Apple were to follow the way Google did? People in China wouldn't have freer access to the non-China internet, or less heavy-handed government intervention, if they had to VPN from Lenovo laptop instead of a Mac. I think this is unhelpful for the ideals that Westerners like to have, specifically because it's a moral crusade.

Apple is the single most valuable corporation in the world. Their brand is more respected than probably any other, globally. If they wanted to lead a movement, the corporate world would follow. But they don’t and instead stick to the no-effort-required causes in the West. Hence my criticism. As I said, if they wanted to just be a faceless megacorp selling gizmos to all buyers, I would find them far less hypocritical.

> If they wanted to lead a movement, the corporate world would follow.

It's an interesting theory, but that didn't happen when Google pulled out.

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#33

Post by CharlesW »

adamcstephens wrote: post #10
t-writescode wrote: post #4

So, question. Does China afford people and companies the same ability to “not work with the FBI” that the United States does? Because at the end of the day, Apple is following US law by refusing to freely hand things over. That’s what warrants, etc, are for. In the US we intentionally make it theoretically hard for law enforcement to do their job so they’re theoretically more likely to get the right person if the ful…

Apple isn’t required by law to contest the requests from law enforcement. They could provide assistance without even telling the target. For example, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third-party_doctrine You are correct that they can’t refuse in China, but they’ve chosen to fight in the US.

Only if you consider complying with most U.S. government requests—all requests with a valid legal basis—"fighting".[1]

For example, Apple complied with U.S. government requests in 90% of cases in 1H'2019.[2]

[1] https://www.apple.com/privacy/government-information-request... [2] https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-complies-percent-us-go...

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#35

Post by Mediterraneo10 »

Judgmentality wrote: post #23
bastard_op wrote: post #15

Tell China no, they extricate you from the country, and rewrite history that you never existed. Tell the FBI no, they'll posture, threaten, and sue, but not do anything too extreme that can't be payed off with lobbying and other backdoor political activity. Apple won't bite the rather large hand that feeds them, or manufactures 100% all of their overpriced gadgets that supply them profits from the rest of the world.…

> they really don't need Apple other than as a brand I'd say that alone makes Apple worthwhile to China. I don't think China will be able to make a global brand like Apple in my lifetime.

> I don't think China will be able to make a global brand like Apple in my lifetime.

In my part of Europe (and whenever traveling in Africa), I see more Huawei ads in the street on any given day than Apple ones. Apple is a global brand, but it is also a premium global brand, meaning it is only visible where salaries are high enough for people to afford it. Huawei and Xiaomi, on the other hand, are both global and affordable to even the developing world.

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#36

Post by user-the-name »

marshmallow_12 wrote: post #13
asperous wrote: post #7

This makes sense to me, there is legal and cultural differences. China is a sovereign country, and Apple is just playing by the rules in that country, one that is rooted in authoritarianism and surveillance. In America, although companies could voluntarily work with law enforcement, the cultural norm and historical momentum is rooted in pushing back against big government and the people’s role in checking the governm…

it is a slap in the face for the FBI and by extension, the us government that Apple has more respect for China then the FBI

Is it a slap in the face to use the freedom you have been given?

Would you rather not live in a country where cooperating with the FBI is optional?

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#37

Post by wyldfire »

t-writescode wrote: post #4

So, question. Does China afford people and companies the same ability to “not work with the FBI” that the United States does? Because at the end of the day, Apple is following US law by refusing to freely hand things over. That’s what warrants, etc, are for. In the US we intentionally make it theoretically hard for law enforcement to do their job so they’re theoretically more likely to get the right person if the ful…

Apple doesn't own the device in question and the FBI wasn't asking for Apple to hand over information in their custody.

That said, the request is beyond the pale and they were right to refuse.

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#38

Post by ceilingcorner »

CharlesW wrote: post #32
ceilingcorner wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is the single most valuable corporation in the world. Their brand is more respected than probably any other, globally. If they wanted to lead a movement, the corporate world would follow. But they don’t and instead stick to the no-effort-required causes in the West. Hence my criticism. As I said, if they wanted to just be a faceless megacorp selling gizmos to all buyers, I would find them far less hypocritical.

> If they wanted to lead a movement, the corporate world would follow. It's an interesting theory, but that didn't happen when Google pulled out.

That seemed more like a “I quit, you can’t fire me!” action and not a coordinated movement.

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#39

Post by Lammy »

legerdemain wrote: post #9

Palantir's leader, Dr. Alexzander Karp, was, of course, entirely right in his prescient letter to investors earlier this year calling other big tech companies "potentially treasonous." The Apples of the world have lost sight of who actually holds their reins. We need a strong national leader to bring them to heel and remind them that serving the needs of the Western people and states is far more "moral" (and what do…

I wonder if leaders in China’s or Russia’s spheres of influence say identical statements about us? Maybe some more surveillance will help us all make some order out of this chaos.

Re: Apple works with China but not the FBI (2016)

#40

Post by jmknoll »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #25
clairity wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>”...if they didn’t simultaneously pretend to be moral forces for good. Michael Jordan understood this years ago...” moral consistency is not why jordan avoided activism. he did so because he knew his whole identity as best basketball player in the world (not to mention his fortunes) could be taken away by oligarchal owners if he made any misstep or perceived slight. he was hyper-competitive and didn’t want to play a…

I’m not saying Jordan is a moral hero, but that he isn’t a hypocrite. I appreciate the cold professionalism far more than the hypocrisy of someone like LeBron.

What do you see as the hypocrisy of LeBron? He's a successful athlete, and also is a person concerned about racism and institutional failings in his country and in his community. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. Plenty of athletes have used their positions to advocate for causes unrelated to sport. Think about Muhammad Ali losing his title for refusing to fight in Vietnam.

The odd man out here is Michael Jordan, with his "Republicans buy sneakers too" quip.

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