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Are You Trading or Gambling?

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11–20 of 419 posts

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#11
post #3

It's an artificial distinction. If you are wealthy, you have access to opportunities with good odds, call it trading and tell everyone about it so they know you are a sophisticated and wise investor. If you are poor, you have few good options and generally wouldn't brag about your gambling. If you do, you are labelled irresponsible.

> If you are poor, you have few good options and generally wouldn't brag about your gambling. If you do, you are labelled irresponsible.

And rightly so. For two main reasons

- demonstrably negative expected value of the bets (like in casino floor games or the lottery)

- relatively high proportion of total net worth wagered

I'm very comfortable with labeling this as irresponsible (regardless of levels of wealth). It's not just a case of "everyone does it but only poor people are shamed for it", there's a clear distinction between the two cases.

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#12
Hey Chris,

thanks for sharing the article. I think I spotted a minor logical error in it tho.

> This is because on average, you will gain $1 with every coinflip. For those interested in the maths, you have a 50% chance of winning $2, and a 50% chance of losing $1. 50% * (+2) + 50% * (-1) = +$1.

Isn’t it an average gain of $ 50ct per coin flip? That way the calculation would be correct aswell.

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#13
Around 20 years ago, I had the opportunity to listen to a member of Nasdaq top management talk about the stock market. It's all a _tiny_ bit blurry, being a long time ago, but I remember how he talked about three different perspectives for investing in stock:

First, the "company perspective". An investor would buy stock in a company they believed in. Maybe they had good products, or good management, or something else. The idea was looking at the how well the company would perform.

Second, the "stock perspective". An investor would ignore the underlying company, but look at the stock itself. It didn't really matter if the company was doing good, but only if the stock itself had good potential. The idea was looking at how well the stock would perform.

Finally, the "game perspective". An investor would not really care about the stock, but only about the behavior of other investors. Day trading would be the example here, profiting mainly on marketplace dynamics, no matter the stock. The idea was looking at how to be a better player than the others.

Then he talked about how the game perspective was the only model that really matched the marketplace, and how the stock market had evolved from being place where people would invest in companies, to a place where they would play a game with other peopl.

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#14
post #3

It's an artificial distinction. If you are wealthy, you have access to opportunities with good odds, call it trading and tell everyone about it so they know you are a sophisticated and wise investor. If you are poor, you have few good options and generally wouldn't brag about your gambling. If you do, you are labelled irresponsible.

I tend to agree. Trading stocks is essentially gambling but almost worse. The odds are rigged but you don’t know by whom abs how much. It’s a game of skill, except not entirely. The house always wins except there are multiple houses and you can lose to all of them.

I think investing is a different beast: that is going long on a company, industry, or the market in general. You reasonably know that the market will over time go up. With specific industries or stocks you take a bit more risk but you are still buying ownership of a thing and things tend to become more expensive over time unless a better thing comes along. But short term gains chasing, especially as a retail investor is just gambling.

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#15

Working out EV is easy for casino table games, relatively easy for poker and extremely difficult for stocks trading.

The reason is pretty simple - probability of events are an important input to calculation of expected values. If the probabilities are off, expected value calculations will differ. Also, Expected Value works under the “law of large numbers” assumptions. That in turn brings into picture the “sequence of return” risk. Two drastically different sequences can lead to the same Expected Value but can have serious short term implications.

“The market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent.”

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#17
post #7
post #4

I think this is an interesting concept for gambling: https://pooltogether.com

Ah, a lottery on a blockchain. Why not! Except, unlike a national lottery, you can't trust the issuer and the value of your prize fluctuates even after you win.

I was referring to the concept, not whether it is centralized or decentralized. Most blockchain applications don't need one to function.

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#18
> A not so obvious result that follows from making successive negative expected value bets, is that in the long run you are guaranteed to lose all your money (or ruin). Intuitively this makes sense as with each bet, you are losing money on average.

Expected value doesn't tell you much about the outcome of successive bets. Someone else can probably explain this better since it comes up on HN a lot (something about ergodicity and the difference between ensemble average and time average).

Quick example is if play a game of double or nothing on coin flips. This is a "fair game" because you pay x and get back 2x * 0.5 + 0 * 0.5 = x. But if you play more than one game you will very quickly get a "nothing" and can't continue.

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#19
post #10

Working out EV is easy for casino table games, relatively easy for poker and extremely difficult for stocks trading.

Yes...bet sizing is something I worry about a lot, but it isn't clear to me how to apply the kelly criterion to a game where the risk/reward is mostly unknown and only based on a hunch.

One better-than-nothing way is to look at historical data:

Looking at the closing price for each trading day, count how many times the stock ended higher and how many times it ended lower than the previous day.

Then you have your odds.

Re: Are You Trading or Gambling?

#20
post #12

Hey Chris, thanks for sharing the article. I think I spotted a minor logical error in it tho. > This is because on average, you will gain $1 with every coinflip. For those interested in the maths, you have a 50% chance of winning $2, and a 50% chance of losing $1. 50% * (+2) + 50% * (-1) = +$1. Isn’t it an average gain of $ 50ct per coin flip? That way the calculation would be correct aswell.

Yeah, I'm also pretty confident it's an average of +50 cents per flip.

E.g. if you get 50 heads and 50 tails in 100 flips, that's +$50, which maps to 50 cents per flip.

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