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The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

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Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#131

Post by dawg- »

ravitation wrote: post #110
tines wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But ultimately you could learn just as much about yourself and the world by doing pottery, woodworking, kayaking, knitting or whatever else you like to do with your spare time. I agree with the rest of your post, but this sentence is a hard disagree. Books let you live a version of the lives of other more intelligent people from almost any point in history. How can pottery and kayaking do that?

What I think is somewhat interesting, is that there are numerous pieces of his/her comment, like the piece you quoted, that essentially imply the need for articles like the one posted here. The idea that you can "learn just as much about [...] the world" from things other than what, until very recently, has been the primary mode of inter-generational human communication is pure absurdity. An idea whose absurdity is i…

Ah! You quoted me but you put a very convenient [...] in place of learning about "yourself". I think the reason you did that is because your criticism is only coherent if you zero in on learning about "the world" and leave out that messy other business of self-discovery. But learning about yourself is pretty important for personal growth, too, in my opinion so important that I even listed it first when writing that sentence ;)

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#132

Post by brokencode »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #129
brokencode wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a pretty weak argument. You are saying that I should invest time and effort into a book to understand it, but also that the purpose of literature is not information. What is there to understand then, if not information? I always hear the author is making a point about life, but why water it down in hundreds of extra pages instead of saying it directly? The only thing I can think is that the story helps us conn…

Have you ever enjoyed a meal? A movie? Done anything at all other than for mindless entertainment or gathering information? Admired a sunset or bought flowers? Literature is an art form. It is almost by definition not practical.

Uh, of course I’ve enjoyed those things. And I’ve enjoyed many books too. I’m saying that the idea of critical reading of books seems pointless to me, because I see them only as entertainment.

I also don’t really enjoy puzzles, so if a book is a puzzle to figure out, and people enjoy the act of decoding them for its own sake, then I can see what I’m missing.

I do like solving technical problems, and that’s why I’m a programmer, but I don’t really get much enjoyment from solving problems that wouldn’t benefit me or others to solve.

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#133

Post by ceilingcorner »

brokencode wrote: post #132
ceilingcorner wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever enjoyed a meal? A movie? Done anything at all other than for mindless entertainment or gathering information? Admired a sunset or bought flowers? Literature is an art form. It is almost by definition not practical.

Uh, of course I’ve enjoyed those things. And I’ve enjoyed many books too. I’m saying that the idea of critical reading of books seems pointless to me, because I see them only as entertainment. I also don’t really enjoy puzzles, so if a book is a puzzle to figure out, and people enjoy the act of decoding them for its own sake, then I can see what I’m missing. I do like solving technical problems, and that’s why I’m a…

There’s a pretty big difference between art and entertainment. Paradise Lost and Harry Potter aren’t exactly in the same category.

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#135

Post by ulisesrmzroche »

brokencode wrote: post #124
ceilingcorner wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are reading literature, real literature, purely for information, I'm afraid you've lost the plot somewhere. As with everything worthwhile in life, good literature is work. Don't expect to pick up a classic novel and understand it immediately.

That’s a pretty weak argument. You are saying that I should invest time and effort into a book to understand it, but also that the purpose of literature is not information. What is there to understand then, if not information? I always hear the author is making a point about life, but why water it down in hundreds of extra pages instead of saying it directly? The only thing I can think is that the story helps us conn…

You’re trying to create a sort of virtual reality, that’s why you need so much world-building. For example, the idea in ”Uncle Tom’s Cabin” is to get the reader to live the life of a slave. The best way to achieve that in writing is details, so the reader can make a picture in their heads. Some people are better than others in making these pictures. Movies are trying to achieve a similar effect, but it’s much easier there.

It is definitely about making an emotional connection. To persuade someone from that angle, think of it like this: a lot of people who were not abolitionists changed their minds after reading Uncle Tom’s Cabin. If it wasn’t for that book, we would not be living in our modern world.

You need to make someone feel the horrors of slavery in order to get them to want to do something about it. That the brain is able to actually be able to go into this alternate reality just with words on papers is actually pretty crazy but definitely valuable.

Plus, a book doesn’t have to just have a single point. Look at “Brothers Karamazov”. There also wouldn’t be a modern world if it wasn’t for that book.

That’s not something you can do with anything other than art. To change someone’s mind. To influence someone...You can’t do that sort of societal change with a list article or a summary or even an essay.

I don’t think it’s a frivolous thing. It’s actually the most valuable and important work you can do if you want to change the world for the better.

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#136

Post by kiba »

dawg- wrote: post #26

I have noticed an interesting trend in our discourse about reading lately - there seems to be more and more moralizing and virtue signaling. So much self-help and "motivation porn" focuses on reading books, as if it's a magical activity that will unlock the best version of oneself. It's part of the new aspirational message - imagine yourself rich, happy, driving a Lamborghini, living off dividends from your stonks, a…

Reading books for fun is OK, but very few people read book strategically.

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#137

Post by tines »

jodrellblank wrote: post #109
tines wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can learn everything about the entire universe from the head of a pin This is just not true haha.

It isn't true that a reader lives a thousand lives, either, they live one life, and it includes reading, but you weren't nitpicking over that distinction.

I didn't interpret either one literally and was being equally nitpicky.

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#138

Post by Balgair »

hsitz wrote: post #117
Balgair wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing about reading is the ROI aspect. Internet comments take ~5 minutes to write, 30s to read (6x ROI). Blog posts are ~4 hours to write, 10m to read (24x). Magazine articles are ~3 months to write, 30m to read (960x). Books are ~5 years to write, 8h to read (1300x). Obviously, books are one of the best reading ROIs. Now, of course, you've got to balance the book quality, your interests, the thesis, the author's…

Besides the idea that finance (i.e., ROI) is relevant at all to the decision to read a book, this doesn't even work as an ROI analogy. You're comparing the investment by one person (the person who writes the work) with the "return" that someone else gets (the person who reads it, though calling the fact that they can read it in less time than it took to someone to write it is hardly a "return"). All this has nothing…

I think it works well as an analogy, thank you very much.

If I want to learn about, I dunno, the ancient Maya, I can go ahead, book a trip to Mexico, go to all the museums, get my hands on the primary sources, etc. This process will take some amount of time, likely years. Im not talking about the knock-on effects, very great as they are, just the pure knowledge.

Or I can grab a few books and use the authors' time and effort. This will take some number of hours, maybe days. But not years.

Such books are a much better use of my time to learn about the Maya than reading NatGeo articles (though still good), or some blog posts (alright in quality) or a bunch of internet comments (still, maybe good here and there). Yes, of course it's a mesh of all these things. But I believe that well researched content (mostly that still means a book) is the best 'bang for your minute' that you can get.

I'll put it this way: I'm trying to invest some limited amount of time in learning more about something or enjoying my time fruitfully. With what little time I have, the best way to learn more about something is (typically) via a book. Enjoyment, sure, it varies more, but books tend to be more, I dunno, rich (?) in a way.

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#139

Post by brokencode »

ceilingcorner wrote: post #133
brokencode wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uh, of course I’ve enjoyed those things. And I’ve enjoyed many books too. I’m saying that the idea of critical reading of books seems pointless to me, because I see them only as entertainment. I also don’t really enjoy puzzles, so if a book is a puzzle to figure out, and people enjoy the act of decoding them for its own sake, then I can see what I’m missing. I do like solving technical problems, and that’s why I’m a…

There’s a pretty big difference between art and entertainment. Paradise Lost and Harry Potter aren’t exactly in the same category.

Sure, but is your argument that I should enjoy great art simply because it’s considered great? Surely there are reasons even for art.

Re: The Art of Reading More Effectively and Efficiently

#140

Post by brokencode »

ulisesrmzroche wrote: post #135
brokencode wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s a pretty weak argument. You are saying that I should invest time and effort into a book to understand it, but also that the purpose of literature is not information. What is there to understand then, if not information? I always hear the author is making a point about life, but why water it down in hundreds of extra pages instead of saying it directly? The only thing I can think is that the story helps us conn…

You’re trying to create a sort of virtual reality, that’s why you need so much world-building. For example, the idea in ”Uncle Tom’s Cabin” is to get the reader to live the life of a slave. The best way to achieve that in writing is details, so the reader can make a picture in their heads. Some people are better than others in making these pictures. Movies are trying to achieve a similar effect, but it’s much easier…

I think that’s a good explanation. Literature can help persuade emotionally when people are otherwise not willing to change their mind based on a purely rational argument.

But what if you already agree with the author to begin with? Then it would seem less profound. Maybe that’s why I haven’t experienced any revelations yet from literature.

Perhaps I can find a great piece of literature I disagree with and it would leave me with a greater appreciation for art.

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