Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#481

Post by ssijak » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:04 PM UTC

Imagine a world with 0 tracking on any website/app. It would be horrendous. Advertising would not stop, it would just be so bad that we as users will be in even worse situation than today.

Now, current situation is also not good, with the amount of tracking/ers not only affecting privacy, but also the look, speed and size of the web pages in a very bad way.

Also no advertising on the web at all, as much as people say they would want it, I think they would even less want the effect of no advertising at all. So many services would be not be feasible, and everything else would be pay per month to access kind of thing. And you can only pay so much.

There should be a middle ground. But me personally would rather prefer _some_ (where that amount is less than today) targeted advertising to the alternatives. Even though I almost never click on ads, on any platform.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#482

Post by ummonk » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:05 PM UTC

SergeAx wrote: post #181

mokus wrote: post #3

The fact that Facebook appears to consider user consent an existential threat to their business model tells me everything I need to know about them right now.

Devil advocating attempt: they obviously did a measure how much of their userbase will allow the app to serve personalized ads and how it will impact their revenue. Even if it is in a ballpark of 10%, it is still a ton of money and, as a commercial enterprise acting in the interests of its shareholders, FB should do it's best to avoid or reduce potential damage.

I recall reading the percent of people refusing consent was something like 95%. No idea how much that will impact revenue though.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#483

Post by auggierose » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

eek04_ wrote: post #354

Nextgrid wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple's incentives appear aligned with their customers. Facebook's are completely opposed.

I disagree. Apple's incentives is to make everybody that has an iPhone pay for apps instead of using advertising supported apps, essentially making things more expensive for the customers. You can think of it as a common. Blocking tracking essentially is a destruction of a bit of commons; the app developer will get less revenue. By systematically encouraging this block, Apple is making it comparatively less worthwhil…

It seems people can do just that now on the new iOS. The app is free to switch off / charge for features if the user is not allowing tracking. Don't know how this works together with GDPR though.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#484

Post by prepend » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

icedistilled wrote: post #127

yawaworht1978 wrote: post #11

Apple should be applauded for this. Their revenue does not depend on software to clandestinely steal and sell users data. One day, we will look back at history and see facebook similar as to how people view myspace now (junkyard of software). Good on Apple not selling devices with a facebook backdoor in them. I know apple probably has deals with malicious governments regarding data access, but at least they are stand…

It's already like myspace. Facebook is giving me super trashy friend suggestions of random foreign women with slightly suggestive pictures, and aside from my demographic I can't think of anything I've personally done on or off the internet which would make them good friend suggestions.

Sometimes I wonder if maybe Facebook’s algorithm is amazing and these people could become best friends. But I tried this a few times and they all sucked.

I suspect it’s as stupid as ranking all members based on some dumb algorithm like “25 year olds like females, this is a female” and just shoveling garbage.

Years ago Facebook just kept recommending people I hated over and over. I wish they would have a mode of “you’re good, we can’t think of anyone else you like.”

It’s like going into a store and the salesperson says “this is perfect for you” and they are just showing you every item in their store.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#485

Post by ficklepickle » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:08 PM UTC

Clubber wrote: post #159

Spooky23 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really weird. I don't think the "threat" is the obvious one... Nobody trusts Facebook -- many, if not most, people honestly believe they listen to their conversations already. The real message is how emotional and immature the leadership is to a perceived slight. A message that said "Cigarettes will kill you" didn't stop smokers, and some label won't stop Facebook users or meaningfully impact Facebook. Hell, whe…

>A message that said "Cigarettes will kill you" didn't stop smokers Nicotine is as hard to quit as heroin. The fact that we still punished smokers through public shaming, exclusion and excessive fines just shows how unsympathetic our culture is to perceived "moral failings." https://www.heart.org/en/news/2018/10/17/why-its-so-hard-to-...

Well I've kicked heroin but not nicotine. Not because the nicotine is more addictive, but because its harms are orders of magnitude less. I've tried both and I would rather go cold-turkey off nicotine than a strong opiate.

I agree 100% with the "perceived moral failings" part. Shaming people does not help. I couldn't kick the H until I stopped shaming myself. The guilt made my usage worse. It was caused by complex mental health issues, dealing with those got me healthy.

The whole ordeal has made me a much more understanding, compassionate person. I'm extremely grateful to be one of the few that made it out.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#486

Post by specialp » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:09 PM UTC

tbrock wrote: post #468

rchaud wrote: post #392

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what's more likely than any kind of legal injunction is that FB and Apple will come to a "mutual understanding". Maybe Facebook will license Apple Maps (for a princely sum) and make some symbolic compromise on data collection that lets Apple water down the permission dialogs.

I don’t think Apple would bat an eye if Facebook decided to not publish their software on their platform.

Facebook could not afford not to as they would lose a huge amount of users. Apple is just doing to them what FB does to people: Accept these terms, be tracked everywhere, or miss out on all the people providing us free content on our platform. Many people accept that because they don't want to be unable to communicate or view things in their garden. That is leveraging their huge scope to push less favorable terms.

So FB has Apple with some leverage over them saying accept this or else. FB is in a weak position because it would be hard to tell your users hey leave Apple because they won't let us take all your data without permission. I don't feel for them at all.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#487

Post by arrosenberg » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

dillondoyle wrote: post #322

runarberg wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Targeted ads don’t work any better then static ads. This is new for me. Actually now that I think about it, all evidence I remember at the moment is anecdotal. So perhaps you are right. Regardless of its efficacy, the legality should be out of the question.

Yes they do. It really bugs me all these HN threads state this and rely on their own personal experience not as an ad buyer but as a consumer. It's not true. One can directly measure ROI and prove the value of this advertising. Especially FB provides for my business (political marketing) at least 10X better direct response value and that is mostly using 1:1 targeting and lookalike modeling.

FB has also lied consistently about the performance of their ad products, so who knows if you are really getting that ROI.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#488

Post by prepend » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:10 PM UTC

rehitman wrote: post #365

gen220 wrote: post #342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my coworkers shared an interesting thought with me the other day. Apple is positioning itself as The Privacy Company today, but they've benefited immensely from the attention economy over the last 15 years. They would not have sold as many millions of iPhones, iPods (heck, even Macbooks) in the last decade, if Instagram & Facebook weren't there to suck people in to their platform (clearly, the same is true for…

I think there is also another part to it. The smart phone market has so many options for users, and there is a limit to camera improvements they can make. For many people (including me) privacy can be another reason to chose IPhone over Pixel. With so many options differences like this matter.

I think it’s really the only true difference they can have with Android.

Google can’t provide privacy that users want as it would bankrupt them. Apple can. Other than that, they can both do the same hardware, software, apps, etc.

I’m surprised it took them this long to really start driving it home. I think they were either trying to figure out if monetarily they wanted to start selling data. Or the buying public finally started caring.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#489

Post by ytwySXpMbS » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

ssijak wrote: post #481

Imagine a world with 0 tracking on any website/app. It would be horrendous. Advertising would not stop, it would just be so bad that we as users will be in even worse situation than today. Now, current situation is also not good, with the amount of tracking/ers not only affecting privacy, but also the look, speed and size of the web pages in a very bad way. Also no advertising on the web at all, as much as people say…

Why would you want effective advertising? The sole purpose of advertising is making you buy something you otherwise wouldn’t buy. Call me old fashioned but if I want to buy something I look up reviews, I don’t just scroll Facebook until a good advert pops up.

Re: Facebook is pushing back on Apple’s new iPhone privacy rules

#490

Post by krrrh » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 7:11 PM UTC

spideymans wrote: post #384

parsimo2010 wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It won’t cause Facebook to go bankrupt (less well-targeted ads can still be sold but aren’t worth as much), but it will meaningfully impact them. Most high level Facebook employees have significant amounts of Facebook stock. Even the implication that Facebook’s ad revenue will decrease is going to lower their stock price. So of course they are going to try to prevent this change- if it becomes permanent they are taki…

>If Android follows suit (not guaranteed but iOS and Android often converge on features within a few versions of each other), then they are going to take another hit. Executives want to prevent this change in the interest of their personal wealth. Google might be incentivized to do it, as doing so would harm the effectiveness of other ad networks without affecting their own (as long as the user has a Google account)

Facebook’s attempts to legally challenge Apples UX changes seem fruitless, but they would definitely have a case against Google if they tried to pull this to benefit their ad network and data collection efforts over Facebook’s.