WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem • Hacker News Board

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#81

Post by ComodoHacker » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:17 PM UTC

To be fair, Telegram's protocol is open and there are many open-source clients with their established userbases. There's even a separate team at Telegram developing an official alternative client (Telegram X) to foster competition. Also, there's Matrix-Telegram bridge in development. So the article's point is only partially applicable to Telegram.

>Why does everybody wanting to exchange messages need the same client?

Why not go a step further and ask why everybody need the same protocol?

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#82

Post by CJefferson » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

dpatterbee wrote: post #35

CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

I get what you're saying, but you seem to just be criticising element, not matrix. All of these are temporary problems which can be overcome with more time to hone the user experience. I would love to see another company come along and make another matrix-based chat app to compete with element, hopefully that would result in them both getting better much quicker.

I hope so too, I'd be happy to suggest another client, if someone could make something as "ruthlessly simple" as the alternatives.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#83

Post by andresp » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:21 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #58

CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

If your mother in law can't even pick a username and password, how will she shop on Amazon, sign up with Google, book a flight? Most other mobile apps require you to sign up for an account too. And it bypasses the big problem of having to use your phone number (though you can already add it if you want for people to easily find you!) In regards to the UX of Elements, I think it's not great either but it's not the onl…

Exactly. This idea of tech barrier is massively overstated. We see people adapt to new tech all the time. The bigger issues are network effects, inertia/lazyness. Alternatives to the status quo are expected to be 10x better to justify mass exodus. Most people don't value privacy and freedom of speech that much.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#84

Post by spurgu » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

ezst wrote: post #63

airza wrote: post #4

I wish that the author had spent more time really thinking about _why_ communication has moved away from email, or why XMPP/IRC never really caught on despite being vastly older than these app competitors (hint: it is because they are federated, and so making sweeping changes to the protocol/client in the name of UX becomes intractable.) It is _very_ frustrating that the internet has had messenger fragmentation since…

> _why_ communication has moved away from email Has it, though? I don't think we are any step closer now to dropping email than we were 25 years ago. > or why XMPP/IRC never really caught on despite being vastly older than these app competitors Could be the lack of marketing (because there isn't a corporation or venture capital money behind benefiting from exponential user base growth) and critical mass/peer-pressure…

>> _why_ communication has moved away from email

> Has it, though? I don't think we are any step closer now to dropping email than we were 25 years ago.

Email feels more like a tool for reaching out than for communicating to me. I.e. it serves like an RSS feed and serves like a way for unknowns (or long lost friends/acquaintances) to reach out to you.

Sure some people still use newsgroups and communicate daily over email, but for most people it's just a method to sign up for accounts in walled gardens.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#85

Post by agumonkey » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:22 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

if the matrix guy can read this, it's important, make things mean and lean.. not overly powerful to the point of alienating the mass market. Maybe have an expert mode for that.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#86

Post by cosmodisk » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:23 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #58

CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

If your mother in law can't even pick a username and password, how will she shop on Amazon, sign up with Google, book a flight? Most other mobile apps require you to sign up for an account too. And it bypasses the big problem of having to use your phone number (though you can already add it if you want for people to easily find you!) In regards to the UX of Elements, I think it's not great either but it's not the onl…

He's got a point tbh. We are having family members who are just about manage to operate WhatsApp. To talk about them booking flights or shopping on Amazon is the equivalent of flying to Mars tomorrow. I reckon there are tens if not hundreds of millions of users who just about manage to answer a call or reply to a message. An average HN reader is probably 0.01% in terms of understanding how to use tech, but there's 99.99% of others that not quite there yet.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#87

Post by iamben » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:24 PM UTC

ppf wrote: post #80

iamben wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But on the flip side I have shallow conversations that dribble my attention away throughout my entire day. The first time I worked for myself - pre social media - was really, really lonely. This pandemic and lockdown is really, really lonely. I can silence my phone, I can turn the screen away from me. I can focus when I want to. But it's truly a blessing knowing I have WhatsApp groups with friends just bantering away…

That should frighten you. If Whatsapp went away tomorrow, would you have any friends?

I would, in exactly the same way I had friends the first time I was working from home. There's precisely nothing that stops me calling any one of them and having a "proper catch up". But sometimes we just need background chatter. Friendship is not defined by membership of a WhatsApp group.

So no, it doesn't frighten me in the slightest.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#88

Post by sweden » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:26 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

While Element.io still has some UX points to improve upon, I wish people would be a bit more honest about the state of Matrix clients and less fatalist.

There are other alternative Matrix clients that implement an experience closer to Whatsapp than Element, like Fluffychat.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#89

Post by Nowado » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:27 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #71

mvanbaak wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And when a popular application get written, it will become the next walled garden. whatsapp uses xmpp. whatsapp became a closed system. PerfectClientXInTheFuture uses matrix. PerfectClientXInTheFuture becomes a closed system. Why? Because that way they can make more money. It's sad, but true.

Whatsapp got bought by Facebook which changed their strategy 100%. They used to ask users for a $1/year payment or something like that, but after being bought by Facebook, they now focus on just providing data to Facebook. I think one of the founders also have openly gone out and regretted the sale to Facebook - "At the end of the day, I sold my company. I sold my users’ privacy to a larger benefit. I made a choice a…

So the plan is to keep on creating new protocols so that there's frequent, although not constant, stream of services that are already user-friendly, but not optimized for milking data yet?

This doesn't strike me as a 'solution'.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#90

Post by sweden » Fri, Feb 26, 2021, 1:31 PM UTC

mvanbaak wrote: post #34

capableweb wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with statements like "I happily use Matrix but my grandma will not, ever, not in this world" is that Matrix is more of a protocol than anything. So of course, your gradma would never use HTTP, but since browsers are now user friendly enough, everyone is using HTTP indirectly. Same can (will? Might?) happen with Matrix, where a popular applications get written on top of Matrix, and users don't even need to…

And when a popular application get written, it will become the next walled garden. whatsapp uses xmpp. whatsapp became a closed system. PerfectClientXInTheFuture uses matrix. PerfectClientXInTheFuture becomes a closed system. Why? Because that way they can make more money. It's sad, but true.

That's not how Matrix works. Please don't spread FUD.