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WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

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Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#61

Post by ekianjo »

maxwellito wrote: post #16
CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

+1 Also about Matrix, the confusion when the client app doesn't have the same name as the protocol is so unfriendly for the non tech-savy users.

> client app doesn't have the same name

it is not that hard to understand.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#62

Post by perryizgr8 »

tchalla wrote: post #51
cheph wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am heavily against switching from WhatsApp to Signal, but you have very good points, and I think Matrix should take note of these points. Technically Matrix can yield a very similar user experience to Signal, but there has to be more focus on actually doing it if it wants to be considered as a serious player in the same space as WhatsApp and Signal.

> I am heavily against switching from WhatsApp to Signal, I'm curious - what are your arguments against the switch?

I dunno about cheph, but I feel Signal and Whatsapp are identical. There is literally no difference between the products in any way. In fact Whatsapp has some extra features on it.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#63

Post by ezst »

airza wrote: post #4

I wish that the author had spent more time really thinking about _why_ communication has moved away from email, or why XMPP/IRC never really caught on despite being vastly older than these app competitors (hint: it is because they are federated, and so making sweeping changes to the protocol/client in the name of UX becomes intractable.) It is _very_ frustrating that the internet has had messenger fragmentation since…

> _why_ communication has moved away from email

Has it, though? I don't think we are any step closer now to dropping email than we were 25 years ago.

> or why XMPP/IRC never really caught on despite being vastly older than these app competitors

Could be the lack of marketing (because there isn't a corporation or venture capital money behind benefiting from exponential user base growth) and critical mass/peer-pressure as a result

> making sweeping changes to the protocol/client in the name of UX becomes intractable.

This starts to be dated, but is a counter-example: https://gultsch.de/objection.html XMPP keeps evolving, and probably faster, and with better adoption than something centralized like Skype for instance. Moreover, we've arguably less feature-packed messengers now than we had two decades ago.

> It is _very_ frustrating that the internet has had messenger fragmentation since the beginning of time, but why can Matrix solve this problem if XMPP cannot? Signal just works.

The irony. Signal contributes to fragmentation. We seem to pretend that it's a protocol/technical issue, but did you know that WhatsApp runs on XMPP, so did Google Talk, and Facebook Messenger early on? All those silos could open federation and let messages be exchanged across services, but chose not to do so (including Signal), because they have more to gain in keeping you hostage.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#64

Post by GekkePrutser »

perryizgr8 wrote: post #62
tchalla wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am heavily against switching from WhatsApp to Signal, I'm curious - what are your arguments against the switch?

I dunno about cheph, but I feel Signal and Whatsapp are identical. There is literally no difference between the products in any way. In fact Whatsapp has some extra features on it.

Same for me. Yet another walled garden. A slightly prettier garden, but when I make a big app move I want to solve more problems than just the privacy one.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#65

Post by indymike »

CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

"I just don't really care." (Comparison of matix.org and Signal follows)

It's a lot easier when everyone is using it already. Federated and distributed chat has been really elusive, and that's surprising given that chat has been around forever. This article was interesting because it was about the core problem: how to get a bunch of diverse systems to support a standard mail protocol and is suggesting the protocol behind matrix be used, and not necessarily some implementation of a client.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#66

Post by GekkePrutser »

alexmingoia wrote: post #57
patrickaljord wrote: post #14

The problem with WhatsApp and Signal is that even though it's e2e, it uses your phone number as id which is the least privacy friendly id they could have picked.

It’s also impractical for digital nomads like myself who don’t use phone numbers at all. I haven’t used Signal, but what do I do if every X months I have a new phone number? Will it still work if I swap SIM cards?

It will, but you need to keep the sim card with the old number topped up so it doesn't expire, in case you ever need to log in again. The only way is to receive a text or call on that number, just like whatsapp.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#67

Post by pimeys »

dpatterbee wrote: post #35
CJefferson wrote: post #11

I really sympathise with this point of view, but when it comes to messaging with family and friends, I just don't really care. Matrix seems to want to be an IRC replacement rather than a one-to-one / small-group chat app. That's fine, but often not what I want. Teaching my mother in law to use Signal: Install. Accept permissions. Choose a PIN. I can send you messages. You can see your friends who already use Signal.…

I get what you're saying, but you seem to just be criticising element, not matrix. All of these are temporary problems which can be overcome with more time to hone the user experience. I would love to see another company come along and make another matrix-based chat app to compete with element, hopefully that would result in them both getting better much quicker.

Beeper seems to be one. Hopefully they allow more people to join their beta soon. https://www.beeperhq.com/

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#68

Post by perryizgr8 »

alexmingoia wrote: post #57
patrickaljord wrote: post #14

The problem with WhatsApp and Signal is that even though it's e2e, it uses your phone number as id which is the least privacy friendly id they could have picked.

It’s also impractical for digital nomads like myself who don’t use phone numbers at all. I haven’t used Signal, but what do I do if every X months I have a new phone number? Will it still work if I swap SIM cards?

Whatsapp has an option to change your number.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#69

Post by Hammershaft »

nuker wrote: post #30

> The origin of mail were a couple of geeks who wanted to exchange messages on ARPANET No, Inventor Of Email is this guy en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiva_Ayyadurai

Unfortunately that guy is a hack who pretended to have developed email to boost his credibility and now spends his days releasing videos using cherry picked and debunked statistics to claim the election was fraudulent.

Re: WhatsApp and most alternatives share the same problem

#70

Post by Strom »

alexmingoia wrote: post #57
patrickaljord wrote: post #14

The problem with WhatsApp and Signal is that even though it's e2e, it uses your phone number as id which is the least privacy friendly id they could have picked.

It’s also impractical for digital nomads like myself who don’t use phone numbers at all. I haven’t used Signal, but what do I do if every X months I have a new phone number? Will it still work if I swap SIM cards?

Not sure about Signal, but you can definitely change your phone number on WhatsApp. You will show up as a different person (with the same name) for other people though. The real effect of it is that the chat history will be split between these "persons" for others.
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