Live data from Hacker News

The Framework Laptop

frame.work

571–580 of 1001 posts

Re: The Framework Laptop

#571

I really want to buy hardware that allows easy repair. That goes for laptops and cellphone in particular. Laptops used to allow easy replacement of battery, memory and hardrives at the very least. All that sacrificed in the name of making the devices "thinner" and the design more attractive. What bits me most is that a lot of younger friends I have, have no such expectations. Talk to them about a cellphone the answer…

high tech and environment considerations are conflicting way harder than most nerds care to acknowledge and it's a real issue.

I'm not sure that's quite true. High tech marketing and profits may be conflicting with environment considerations, but those are not technical issues.

I would argue that after many years of customisable/repairable desktop PCs and servers, it is clear that a more modular and standardised design is a good thing in most ways. It tends to be gamers who are the big upgrade-in-place fans and will look at things like new CPUs or graphics cards or even motherboards, but the modularity and standardisation are also good for simple things like adding more storage or RAM, or replacing a failed PSU or drive in an otherwise working system.

Even if you never use the flexibility yourself, an old PC can potentially have the storage devices wiped or replaced for security and then be passed on to another user. That might be a recycled home PC going to a less developed country where someone otherwise wouldn't be able to afford one. It might be a business clearing out some old pro-level equipment that finds its way to a homelab enthusiast. Either way, it's saving someone money and making more use of the equipment for longer.

Modern laptops and phones have fought against this modularity and flexibility, and that's not a good thing. There have been all kinds of arguments made about achieving smaller and lighter devices that people carry with them, or needing carefully engineered airflows to keep high performance components cool in limited space, or achieving better fluid resistance in case of accidents. Sometimes those arguments do have some merit. But let's not kid ourselves that all the sealed cases and ever-changing connectors (or lack of connectors) and active steps to prevent systems working with "unofficial" replacement parts aren't heavily in the interests of the manufacturers and doing real harm to both customers and the environment.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#572
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be…

I care a lot too - but I care about a lot of other features, too, and refuse to buy Apple.

My conclusion was to disable the trackpad and always carry an external mouse. I do a lot of CAD work and there's nothing that compares to a real mouse for speed and precision.

I'll use my Trackpoint nib in a pinch, but the trackpad ecosystem is so bad that I just write it off entirely. Yeah, keeping a mouse on hand is annoying, but it's like a physical keyboard: Would you ever buy a laptop where you had to input reams of text with a touchscreen keyboard? No, that's absurd, keyboards are a necessary part of a computer. Would you ever buy a trackpad for a desktop PC? I wouldn't, I'd use a mouse.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#573
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be…

> That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be the best. 100%. On my personal devices I don't want to compromise on trackpad or keyboards (I like that apple went back on the butterfly keyboards). The rest of my comment is just my personal experience so take it with a grain of salt. I've found the trackpad experience on the XPS and Thinkpad X1 laptops to be excellen…

I didn't mention this in my comment, but i use wayland on linux and i've found the touchpad experience to be nicer there compared to X11, even though both X11 and wayland sessions for Gnome use libinput. I don't know much about libinput to know why I feel a difference in my touchpad experience between X11 and wayland.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#574
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do any of the modern Thinkpads offer user-replaceable parts? Any time I see Thinkpads recommend on HN, it's for older, 2nd hand laptops. Also, do any of such Thinkpads approach the lightness, thinness and aesthetic of this laptop? Last time I looked at new Thinkpads, I seem to recall they were pretty chunky, with only the Ideapads being thin, light and nice to look at (it was a while ago, so I might have that wrong t…

I'm really happy with both of these aspects on my Thinkpad T14. It has user replacable ram (one slot), wifi, nvme drive as well as a remaining free m2 slot, used for WAN on models with that. Lenovo also tells you the partnumbers of replacements and I've been able to find many of them for sale around the internet. It's approx. the same weight and a tad thicker and I (personally) like the design. It also has a 16 threa…

Just had a look - I don't think I would describe it as a pretty machine, more kind of "inoffensive" :) But it is 14", fairly light, and replaceable parts is nice. Looks like it maxes out at 16GB, which is a deal-breaker for me tho.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#576

Earlier quoted context omitted.

my point is that most tasks are either ① best done in a good text editing / development environment Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. would be better done with a specialized non-keyboard, non-trackpad input device Show me a be…

>Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market. Does the fact that non-Apple computers are hugely popular indicate that the needs of…

> But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market.

The person you're replying to said "trackpads are popular" with no mention of Apple. Your entire argument so far has been against trackpads in general. Why shift goalposts?

Re: The Framework Laptop

#577

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

I’ve never understood why people⁰ care so much about trackpads. For working with text (including code) keyboards are better, and for gaming mice are better. Where I'm less sure is graphics and video, but it seems to me like specialized mice, graphics tablets, and other tools (eg. https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/key... and https://www.blackmagicdesign.com/products/davinciresolve/pan... ) are b…

A friend of mine is a professional photographer, he is using his trackpad to process and edit his pictures. Hundreds of them per session. And it's not like he can't afford a mouse or even specialized hardware.

And having tried Apple touchpads, they are actually good, so much that they released a standalone version for desktop computers. On every PC I have tried, at best, they provide you with a pointing device in case using a mouse is impractical. I don't intend to buy a Mac for several reason but I have to admit that their trackpads are not in the same league.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#578
Look at the older Lenovo workstation laptops for an example of something similar.

I have a P50 -- a 3840x2160 15" screen, 32GB of RAM, Xeon E3-1505M v5 @ 2.8GHz, and a removable battery. It also comes with space (easily accessible!) for extra drives, ram slots, etc. Even with the overkill Xeon CPU, I still get ~5hours of battery life on windows under moderate load.

Most importantly, the service manual is a thing of beauty, and has detailed instructions for almost any replacement. This is a laptop designed to be used, upgraded, and used again.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#579

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Your point is only correct if you replace the word "most" with "my." The fact that trackpads are hugely popular indicates that your needs are not typical, and you should not impose your choices upon others with different needs. But Apple trackpads are not hugely popular, they have a fraction (~10%, likely less) of the global market. Does the fact that non-Apple computers are hugely popular indicate that the needs of…

You... you do realize that you can’t order a PC laptop with a Mac trackpad, right? No one is like, “I could have the Mac trackpad for the same cost, but I prefer the stuttery trackpad that moves the cursor and selects shit when my palm gets too close”.

> You... you do realize that you can’t order a PC laptop with a Mac trackpad, right?

You can as long as you can order x86 Macs with Bootcamp.

> No one is like, “I could have the Mac trackpad for the same cost, but I prefer the stuttery trackpad that moves the cursor and selects bleep when my palm gets too close”.

No, but there are plenty of people who think “I prefer no trackpad to accidentally swipe [—even if palm rejection is perfect, I want total hand —including finger— rejection—] at all”, from people who buy Macs and use the setting Apple provides to disable the trackpad when mice are plugged in, to people who use their Mac as a PC laptop and manually disable the trackpad (https://www.lakshmikanth.com/how-to-disable-trackpad-on-boot...), to people who try to more permanently disconnect broken old Mac trackpads (https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/386625/macbook-pro...), to people who physically disconnect their trackpads, to people who buy old thinkpads because eg. at least some x200s have only a trackpoint and fingerprint sensor.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#580
post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've still never seen a PC with a sane touchpad. That's the first issue in a long tail of grievances with the PC laptop ecosystem. EDIT: This isn't a generic "pro-Mac" dig, I want a nice PC laptop because I like dabbling with Linux; however, even the high end trackpads are clunky, even with the pre-installed Windows (never mind the eternal sadness that is Linux trackpad configuration).

For whatever reason, I've never used a laptop that wasn't a MacBook that has had a trackpad anywhere as amazing as what Apple has done. I don't know if the problem is hardware, software, or both, but as a consumer I don't care. I'll never buy a non-Apple laptop until I can find one that has a trackpad as good or better. That's my personal requirement. On a personal laptop I always use the trackpad so I want it to be…

Funny you say that. I'm a long-time MacBook Pro user, that migrated to Microsoft (!) Surface Go (!!) running Windows 10 (!!!) recently. Not only is the OS tolerable (after I figured how to prevent crashes ... I mean, automatic updates) and the device more convenient than any I've used before (a real computer in the iPad form factor), the trackpad is amazing as well, I truly don't notice any difference with MacBook Pro trackpad!
Post reply on HN