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The Framework Laptop

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Re: The Framework Laptop

#521

Post by croh »

Liskni_si wrote: post #332
nrp wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keyboard and touchpad quality were high priorities for us. We built in 1.5mm key travel, which is unusually high for a <16mm thick laptop. The touchpad surface feels great and performs well. I hear you on the touchpad buttons though. That is something we've done a little exploration on. The touchpad is an end-user replaceable module, but we can't commit to a three button version materializing just yet.

Key travel isn't everything. The layout is important as well. This is the best layout humanity ever invented: https://www.notebookcheck.net/fileadmin/_processed_/c/0/csm_... Classic arrow keys, separate volume buttons, separate back/forward/pageup/pagedown, F1-F12 as the primary functions, …

haha fn on extreme left. are you kidding?

Re: The Framework Laptop

#522

Post by asoneth »

mdpye wrote: post #86
nrp wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The arrow keys were an interesting challenge. We actually prototyped both versions, and the full height ones ended up feeling better to most folks. It's definitely a matter of personal preference though. The Framework Laptop comes in at 15.85mm thick and 1.3kg. So a couple of sheets of paper thicker than a 13" MacBook Pro, but a bit lighter. On the Expansion Cards, that is fair. We can say we're getting rid of the ne…

How modular is the keyboard? I can see a replacement sat next to the case in the photo, but is the layout cut in to the case? If you can make an alternative case with an (e.g.) 12x5 1u grid layout keyboard that lets me put my thumbs to use and stop contorting my fingers, I will more of less open my wallet and let you take what you fancy!

I came to say the same thing. Ortholinear (grid) or staggered columnar keyboards would appeal to an extremely small but passionate group of ergo keyboard users. Given that the alternative for folks who use this kind of layout is to carry around a separate $150-400[1] keyboard I think at least a few people would be willing to pay a hefty premium for a laptop with a customizable keyboard.

[1] https://shop.keyboard.io/products/keyboardio-atreus https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/

Re: The Framework Laptop

#523

Post by tkinom »

enchiridion wrote: post #491
jakry wrote: post #483

Is the Laptop also available with a AMD ryzen CPU?

Yep, this is my question too. If not is the CPU swapable? Especially given that this product appeals to the PC builder types, it really should support AMD.

Intel to AMD CPU swap is impossible.

They definitively should design it to support motherboard swapping.

Or maybe even swap to ARM base motherboard when/if 8,16,32 cores ARM base CPU with 3-15watts is available and ready.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#524

Post by giberson »

I like the idea of a repairable/upgradable/modular laptop. However, to really buy in to the idea I want more than a promise of future upgradability. I'd really like to see a company roadmap that shows expected future dates of upgrade releases.

Show me if you're expecting to put out new CPU upgrade parts every 1, 2, 3 or 5 years.

Show me what type/generation of graphic card is available and your expectation of how far behind graphic card modules will lag behind current gen cards, 1,3,5,10 years?

Show me how long I'll expect to have to wait to double my storage, or ram.

And most of all, what are the target price points of current and future upgrades.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#525

Post by wtallis »

frant-hartm wrote: post #467
mnahkies wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Use the keyboard predominantly instead of the trackpad and problem mitigated ;) I've been using Linux exclusively on ~5 different laptops of varying quality the last few years and I haven't been able to relate to the frequent comments about trackpad support being poor - not sure if it's just I don't use it that much, or don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook. My biggest gripe applies to…

>don't realize what I'm missing since I haven't used a modern macbook That's what I thought as well, but every time I try to use my colleagues Mac it's a struggle, movement speed is really weird as it's not linear, tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to. True, I have used it maybe for 1…

> movement speed is really weird as it's not linear,

It really shouldn't be linear. That would force you to make unnecessary tradeoffs between precision and the ability to get the cursor from one side of the screen to the other in just one or two swipes.

> tapping doesn't behave as one would expect (never had a problem with Linux or even windows with that). The whole thing is a weird button which presses when I don't want to.

Tap to click is an option that can be toggled on and off, on every trackpad I've ever used. Additionally, Apple trackpads since 2015 let you adjust in software the amount of force required for a press on the trackpad to register as a click.

> What a pain, learn some shortcuts and use it for random text selection only.

I can just as easily turn this around: configure and learn a few multi-touch gestures and you won't have to keep moving your hand off the trackpad to perform keyboard shortcuts.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#526

Post by GordonS »

zepearl wrote: post #447
GordonS wrote: post #370

This looks absolutely fantastic! Any plans for a larger version, 14/15", or maybe even 16"?

I'll add that I'm looking since forever for a 16+/17'' *thin" laptop (currently using a Lenovo P71, which is a brick) - for some reason nowadays there are hundreds of 13/14/15'' laptops which are thin, but 17'' are always huge - the only thin one that exists, as far as I know, is the LG Gram 17, which is not available with my country's keyboard layout (Swiss German). Very important things for me would be the keyboard…

Yeah, reason I asked is that I find 13" just a wee bit too small for my liking, so it would be nice to have the option of something just a little bigger.

Not 17" tho, even if it was light (it wouldn't be), it would be massive.

Years back I got lumbered with a 17" CAD laptop from work, an HP I think. It weighed 5-6kg, which was ridiculous - I ended up with grazing all over my shoulder from my backpack! Luckily I managed to swap it after a short time.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#527

Post by rsync »

nrp wrote: post #67
sho_hn wrote: post #60

I don't see any information on the licensing of the adapter card / inter-module interfaces. Can others build a Framework laptop without approval? Can others build cards without approval? Will it be a platform? Tell me how this isn't a Nespresso machine for silicon pods. :-) Edit: To be clear, even a "we have a generic base laptop and you can pick your I/O" concept is potentially a nice value prop, but it'd be good if…

We will be releasing specifications and reference designs for the Expansion Card system under a permissive license. We want to make it easy for both other companies and members of the community to develop their own cards and sell them through the Framework Marketplace. That is something we'll be detailing and sharing between now and the time we start shipping out the product. We'll also provide documentation around i…

Can you somehow bring back the PCMCIA interface ?

Favorite hardware form factor ever ...

Re: The Framework Laptop

#528

Post by dvdkon »

tomtheelder wrote: post #284
lovelyviking wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I think this proves that Apple was right to dump legacy ports. How it proves it? Those guys do not drop ports, they just make them modular. All the "saved space" in Apple laptops become amazingly wasted space in your bag with tons of adapters and wires. I still dream to meet the one who made such 'wise' decision to tell him what I think about it personally! >USB-C, and the correct cables, are all anyone needs. I am…

I think the SD card example encapsulates the issue perfectly. I'm pretty sure that in 2021 that is an _extreme_ niche use case. I feel like only extremely serious photographers and perhaps a particular slice of musicians use them. It makes absolutely no sense for them to have that built into the laptop. 99% of people who own Macbooks or whatever don't own an SD card dongle because they don't need it. However, and ext…

I use my notebook's SD card reader all the time. Cameras, ARM SBCs, 3D printers, random SD cards I find laying around... There's plenty of use cases for an SD card reader, I certainly use video out on my notebook much less.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#529

Post by samatman »

nrp wrote: post #57
nightowl_games wrote: post #34

Honestly this is exactly what I want (quality, repairable, upgradable), but I'm not all in yet. I feel like this space is extremely hard to break into, and I'm worried about their ability to pull it off. Is there massive capital in this corp? Will the price be really high? I'd pay a premium for this kind of thing, but if they start crowd funding it's gonna seem like a red flag.

We have the funding we need to bring the product to market (an odd downstream benefit of Oculus getting bought by Facebook), but we will be taking pre-orders with a deposit prior to shipping to make sure our SKU mix and production rates are matched to actual demand. We won't be asking consumers to pay a premium for longevity, but it's nice to hear that you'd be willing to!

Drive by suggestion here.

I think you should offer a first-class Linux experience with this laptop. It's a genuinely underserved market, with a lot of overlap for people who care about the repairability and upgradability which are core to your offering. A market with premium mind share, as well.

When I say first class, I mean something specific: you should spend some of your engineering budget making a really good driver Linux driver for your touchpad, and open source it. That would be huge. I'm sure your hardware is up to snuff, but your control over how good that feels in Windows is very limited.

There are a bunch of developers who have stuck with the Mac for essentially one reason, the touchpad.

Windows is dominant in laptops, but with distinct verticals, and I struggle to figure out which one this would fit into. Cheap semi-disposable laptop for a broke college student? Clearly this will cost more than that. Gaming? No way you'll have enough power and battery with that form factor. Excel ninjas who get it from work? Why would they care about expansion and repairability?

But "I'd rather be using Linux if the experience just sucked a little bit less" is underserved. Obviously you can't offer just Linux, and maybe licensing shenanigans with Microsoft mean you can't even consider this (although I really hope that's not a factor anymore).

Anyway. Good luck, it's a cool idea.

Re: The Framework Laptop

#530

Post by metalliqaz »

giberson wrote: post #524

I like the idea of a repairable/upgradable/modular laptop. However, to really buy in to the idea I want more than a promise of future upgradability. I'd really like to see a company roadmap that shows expected future dates of upgrade releases. Show me if you're expecting to put out new CPU upgrade parts every 1, 2, 3 or 5 years. Show me what type/generation of graphic card is available and your expectation of how far…

roadmaps are meaningless. talk is cheap. Just ask anyone who has ever bought into a "live service" video game, or countless other ambitious but later abandoned products.

Here's what I can say for sure. The options for future upgrades will be correlated with the sales figures of the base laptop.

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