The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology • Hacker News Board

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#181

Post by asdff » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:52 PM UTC

dschuetz wrote: post #44

spoonjim wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I find is that people of my generation have some basic idea of at least some computer jargon because of what we had to learn just to get our PCs working in the 80s and 90s. What in fuck's name is a parity bit? We learned because we wanted to get our modems configured to play Doom together when our moms weren't on the phone. I'm not talking about people who went into computers, I'm just talking about the people w…

The people who grew up knowing what a parity bit was, are in the IT consulting business now, myself included. I think that's how things naturally change. IT and computer hardware has become that much complex and popular at the same rate, you now need people and abstraction for that. It doesn't have to be a bad thing though.

I really don't think its any more complex than it was 20-30-40 years ago. At the end of the day, none of this GUI abstraction does anything more than what the computer can do at the command line, and that's practically been etched in stone at this point—some of these bash commands are older than my boomer parents. Instead, people just don't have to bother learning beyond the abstraction to get work done anymore. It's just like cars: you don't need to know how to drive a stick shift and all the mechanical theory behind shifting gears smoothly if you have an automatic transmission instead.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#182

Post by pjmlp » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:53 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #65

exporectomy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it really any more limiting? They can make programs in Scratch or other web apps on their phone. It's not "real" native software but it wasn't in the 1980's either. Kids then used BASIC interpreters. Compilers for "real" programming languages like C were unaffordable. Even assembly language and machine language were often inaccessible because computers didn't have an assembler or hex editor and you couldn't get ne…

You can’t use Scratch on your iPhone, and the built-in basic programming was far more “native” than any similar smartphone equivalent we have today. My TI-89 calculator remains way more programmable than my smartphone. I’m not sure why it has become so common on Hacker News to defend this trend and/or pretend it’s not a trend.

Then just install Pythonista.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#183

Post by asdff » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:56 PM UTC

solinent wrote: post #95

I think as computers fail to get faster, we won't be able to improve performance without making application specific logical units, however, we may still be able to make it general purpose.

I'm waiting for automatic code optimization. Write the code going from an input to an output however you like, show the computer your input and output, have it rewrite the most optimal (and probably very weird looking) code possible to go from your supplied input to your supplied output, and reap the efficiency rewards to mastering a stack of arcane low level code reference books without spending the thousands of hours of your precious and limited free time to do so. That would be a huge leap imo.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#184

Post by InvertedRhodium » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 7:58 PM UTC

ravi-delia wrote: post #149

EvanAnderson wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the fact I don’t have to muck about with my iPhone to get it to work ... I have changes I want to make to my iPhone. Some of them would be as easy as adding a trigger to an SQLite datbase that a stock "app" uses. I'm not "allowed" to. I don't think companies should be legally permitted to take away the rights of an owner to do what they please with their own property. Locked bootloaders, e-fuses, crypto keys b…

Believe me, in general I'm with you. But at the end of the day you just don't have to buy an iphone . Get an android device, flash it with Linux, buy a pinephone, do whatever you want! But Apple doesn't sell tinker's devices, they sell a walled garden. Why force them to spend even 10 seconds of effort on something that isn't their business, when there are plenty of other options? There's a reason I don't have any App…

As someone who owns a Pinephone, don't buy a Pinephone if you're expecting a functional, usable device. It might get there in a year or more, but it's nowhere near there now.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#185

Post by InvertedRhodium » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:02 PM UTC

njharman wrote: post #178

asdff wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's like saying you don't have to buy a car, or you don't have to get an air conditioner. Sure, you could tolerate a 2 hour bus ride and a summer with 90+ degree heat waves, but there is no reason to put yourself through that given the cost of the alternative luxury is not insurmountable even for working people in expensive places. We are in a similar place in the mobile world, where life is getting increasingly r…

No it's not! The parent listed other phones as options, not "do without a phone". Following your weird examples the parent's comment is like saying you don't have to buy a *Ford* car, or a *Carrier* AC. There are many more car and AC options if you don't like Ford or Carrier.

They also listed the Pinephone, which had no facility to do most of those things. It's either Apple or Android, and both of these are making it harder and harder over time to run your own software stack.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#186

Post by milesvp » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:05 PM UTC

colllectorof wrote: post #138

mattkevan wrote: post #106

Thing is, in the ‘olden days’, the only thing you could do with a home computer was tinker - the job of a computer was to be a computer but little else. And the number of people interested in doing that was small. Today, the job of a computer is everything. Computers are in everything and do everything. They are our interface to the world. Their value is what they enable - writing, tax returns, video consumption, gam…

This is fake insight. Most people I know who are any good at programming had started learning about it by modifying something either on their own computers (pre-2000) or on the web (post 2000). They took things they found interesting or useful and somehow introspected and changed them. Good chunks of skills gained by that were transferable to professional environment. Today, this is not how people get into tech. Ther…

This is a problem EE’s currently talk about. People good at analog electronics are starting to age out of the workforce. There are a ton of people who got into electronics 40+ years ago by fiddling with things. This is harder today than it was back when through hole was how components were made (though the maker movement has changed that trajectory IMO). I could easily see the same problem with CS in general as access to general computing becomes less populous. I’ve even heard rumor it’s happened to some degree already when people talk about an unusual age band for devs born around +/- 1975 who tend to have a particularly good grasp of computers due to growing up with the first personal computers.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#187

Post by novok » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:09 PM UTC

CryptoGhost wrote: post #166

colllectorof wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is fake insight. Most people I know who are any good at programming had started learning about it by modifying something either on their own computers (pre-2000) or on the web (post 2000). They took things they found interesting or useful and somehow introspected and changed them. Good chunks of skills gained by that were transferable to professional environment. Today, this is not how people get into tech. Ther…

You are talking about a barrier to entry (in the sense that it used to be easier) for a person who is new to general purpose computing to get on boarded while the person you are replying to is talking about the opportunity increase in the number of systems you can with work with presently.

I think it's actually easier today, because of the large amount of free well made educational resources out there, stack overflow, raspberry pi, instant IDEs from just typing in a URL, scriptable and popular online games like roblox and more. While in the past you had books you had to buy and if you were lucky, some help on IRC and basic on your computer, that you were encouraged to use to get some basic games on your computer if you were a gen X kid.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#188

Post by margalabargala » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:12 PM UTC

colllectorof wrote: post #138

mattkevan wrote: post #106

Thing is, in the ‘olden days’, the only thing you could do with a home computer was tinker - the job of a computer was to be a computer but little else. And the number of people interested in doing that was small. Today, the job of a computer is everything. Computers are in everything and do everything. They are our interface to the world. Their value is what they enable - writing, tax returns, video consumption, gam…

This is fake insight. Most people I know who are any good at programming had started learning about it by modifying something either on their own computers (pre-2000) or on the web (post 2000). They took things they found interesting or useful and somehow introspected and changed them. Good chunks of skills gained by that were transferable to professional environment. Today, this is not how people get into tech. Ther…

I agree that the proportion of people getting into tech via curiosity and experimentation has decreased.

However, I'm not convinced that the absolute number has decreased. It's completely possible that larger numbers than ever of people are getting into tech as an extension of their own curiosity, and are simply less visible due to being outnumbered by the masses from bootcamps.

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#189

Post by Silhouette » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:13 PM UTC

ravi-delia wrote: post #149

EvanAnderson wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love the fact I don’t have to muck about with my iPhone to get it to work ... I have changes I want to make to my iPhone. Some of them would be as easy as adding a trigger to an SQLite datbase that a stock "app" uses. I'm not "allowed" to. I don't think companies should be legally permitted to take away the rights of an owner to do what they please with their own property. Locked bootloaders, e-fuses, crypto keys b…

Believe me, in general I'm with you. But at the end of the day you just don't have to buy an iphone . Get an android device, flash it with Linux, buy a pinephone, do whatever you want! But Apple doesn't sell tinker's devices, they sell a walled garden. Why force them to spend even 10 seconds of effort on something that isn't their business, when there are plenty of other options? There's a reason I don't have any App…

Believe me, in general I'm with you. But at the end of the day you just don't have to buy an iphone. Get an android device, flash it with Linux, buy a pinephone, do whatever you want!

The problem with this argument is the same as any essential utility. At some point, it becomes impossible to live a normal life without access to a certain facility. If access is only available through a monopoly provider or a small enough number of providers that they tend to move the market in unison even if not actively collaborating, that can become a serious problem.

This is why we have government regulation of essential markets. Regulators might impose pricing limits in violation of the "free market", to prevent exploitation of vulnerable customers (and in this context, remember that most or all customers might be in that category) where competition fails to do so effectively on its own. But laws and regulations can also impose other safeguards, such as requiring honest advertising, adequate privacy and security protections, or interoperability.

I think it is no longer credible, at least in my country (the UK) and others like it, to argue that a modern smartphone is a luxury. People use their phones to access government services, shops and home delivery services, banks and financial services. They are by far the dominant communication device of our age, not just for calls but also texts, emails, numerous Internet-based communications channels. Some people no longer have any other reasonably convenient means to access those services and communications. Some of those services and channels are provided exclusively via mobile apps and simply aren't available to those who don't have a phone (which is in itself a problem, because obviously not everyone does, and this is making things very difficult for some demographics during the strange times we are living in).

This being the case, it is reasonable to argue that people should not have to choose between two dominant ecosystems for their phone when both have serious problems in areas like privacy, security, reliability and data lock-in, some of which are a direct result of the interests of the providers of those two dominant platforms, without any realistic ability for most people to protect themselves from those risks or with any such ability relying essentially on luck (for example, the availability of jailbreaks and the continued operation of essential apps despite any jailbreak that has been applied).

Re: The decline of computers as a general-purpose technology

#190

Post by DerekL » Thu, Feb 25, 2021, 8:18 PM UTC

mattkevan wrote: post #106

Thing is, in the ‘olden days’, the only thing you could do with a home computer was tinker - the job of a computer was to be a computer but little else. And the number of people interested in doing that was small. Today, the job of a computer is everything. Computers are in everything and do everything. They are our interface to the world. Their value is what they enable - writing, tax returns, video consumption, gam…

I'm confused. What does this comment have to do with the article?