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Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

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Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#191
post #129
post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they were both reduced hours and beholden to their jobs with no time off?

Easily possible. Show up for one hour, ever other hour, to perform task X. I pay you for four hours and you need to be on call for eight daily.

So... quit?

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#192
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you’re paid minimum wage in the US, and you’re not permitted to perform a full-time job, you probably have to hold down multiple jobs; you probably also don’t get things like healthcare from any of them. Zero hours contracts in theory mean you can refuse work (at least that’s how it works in the U.K.), but obviously you’re going to be fired for doing so, so you’re essentially constantly on call for both/all your…

if you have multiple jobs, then you clearly have time to find another job.

no, working an additional job does not give you more hours in a day. rather it consumes time. what do you do at work?

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#193
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are at least nominally directly elected by their constituents and beholden to them, which is why they are protected when engaging in politics. If you think they do not represent them, then maybe the solution is to develop better union structures that are more democratic and representative. But by and large, teachers do not support the Libertarian party and instead favour the Democratic party, quite heavily in…

Agree with your points. However, using that line of thinking people voluntarily join a company too. Often to work for a company with union rep one HAS to join, whether one agrees or not, so it’s not entirely voluntary in a strict sense. All this said, I do believe Amazon is treating their warehouse workers unfairly and they deserve pushback though I admit I do not favor bringing in a Union due to my past member exper…

The one time I worked in a union shop, I was told that I didn't have to join, but I did have to pay dues. If I chose to join, there were certain benefits provided by the union to members (optical coverage IIRC).

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#194
post #98

Full disclosure: I've always been anti-union for my own personal approach to life. I do see the value in unions, I've just always, to this point, been a go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles kind of person. I don't want to be beholden to a union or their rules any more than I want to be beholden to an employer beyond my contractual obligations for which I'm paid. That said, people should take note of what happened whe…

You appear to perhaps be from the UK (saw "honour"). Employees in the UK have quite a lot more protection by default than they do in the US. I do respect your go-it-alone-and-fight-my-own-battles position, but consider that you might feel differently if you were in a US "right to work" state.

I don't know what it means to live in a "right to work" state. I assume that means that everyone has a right to reasonably paid employment?

I don't understand how this situation could come to be. What if there were no employers? That situation can only occur if there are enough jobs to maintain gainful employment of every citizen of the state. In such a situation I would likely only remain around as long as there was work willing to pay me what I need to maintain a lifestyle to which I was attracted.

I left Kamloops, BC in 2001 because the only jobs available there sucked (in my eyes). I was frowned upon as a snob because I turned down 3 union jobs which appeared to be the pinnacle of success in Kamloops at the time. I couldn't understand why that seemed to be the height of ambition there. I moved to Vancouver Island in the hope of better. I loved it there, but I left there in 2004, because again the only jobs available had shit pay and I couldn't afford any kind of enjoyable lifestyle. Now I live outside Toronto and enjoy a much more financially comfortable lifestyle... at the cost of an almost complete lack of scenery admittedly. I've never been one to stick around when the economic situation wasn't viable. I couldn't see myself sticking around in a "right to work" state if that's what it meant. I don't really see how it would change my opinion either.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#195
post #152
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, this is where we see inequality as a force that perverts democracy. The side of capital has an enormous quantity of resources (by definition) that they use to influence electoral outcomes. So in a way, yes, the votes aren't very legitimate when the side of capital out-spends the side of labor by thirteen to one: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-10-16/skelton-...

Do you think there's any chance that this was actually what a majority of Californians wanted? You seem very confident that you know better what the voters wanted than they did. While differences in spending surely have some effect, spending isn't the only way to get the word out. I didn't measure, but I feel pretty confident that no more than 60% of the total communication about Prop 22 that I heard from any source…

Hope you're happy with your decision, oh champion of the downtrodden https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/feb/18/uber-lyft-do...

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#196

Ugh, this is disgusting and so patronising. Edit: Also, why are "union avoidance consultants" a thing? The US needs to fix its culture around unions. That's absolutely wild.

Unions are so unpopular even with people that in theory support unions. Look at the normal, non in power, peoples response to unions at any mid/large tech company.

Disclaimer: I've a pro union Vermont raised Bernie loving person. But its impossible to see any recent unionization effort and not see the majority of people who are skeptical at best and sucking in and repeating the company propaganda at worst.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#197
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions are at least nominally directly elected by their constituents and beholden to them, which is why they are protected when engaging in politics. If you think they do not represent them, then maybe the solution is to develop better union structures that are more democratic and representative. But by and large, teachers do not support the Libertarian party and instead favour the Democratic party, quite heavily in…

Agree with your points. However, using that line of thinking people voluntarily join a company too. Often to work for a company with union rep one HAS to join, whether one agrees or not, so it’s not entirely voluntary in a strict sense. All this said, I do believe Amazon is treating their warehouse workers unfairly and they deserve pushback though I admit I do not favor bringing in a Union due to my past member exper…

> people voluntarily join a company too

A choice between starvation and warehouse job at amazon where you’re penalized for taking a bathroom break is not a choice made freely.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt this was about Uber being told they had to treat drivers like employees in California too, and look how that turned out: A dystopian rule that lawmakers can't overturn to enable worker exploitation.

These kinds of takes are always weird to me. Shouldn't it matter, at least a little, that the rule was what a 17-point majority of voters wanted? You don't have to personally agree with every democratic outcome, but it almost sounds like you're saying the results of a vote aren't legitimate if they go the wrong way.

This is just an anecdote, but perhaps other people can comment, since the plural of anecdote is data...

I personally know several people who voted for the proposition under the impression that it was a pro-worker proposition that would guarantee benefits for drivers. There were 3 other people for whom I explained the context around it (including the fact that it was preempting a flawed bill from the legislature) before they mailed their ballots in and they changed their vote.

I also know several people who think that we should eliminate the rules for treating workers as employees in general, and they voted for the bill as well, so there's definitely some support. Its definitely clear from my point of view that a significant fraction of the people who voted for the proposition did so because they misunderstood what they were voting for.

OTOH that's probably true about all ballot measures ever, and probably most legislation as well.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also reference Amazon's "Do it without dues" site: https://www.doitwithoutdues.com/

I love this: "Make your voice heard! VOTE NOW AND VOTE NO." Those posters are all over the warehouses and it really feels like some 1984-esque parody.

I don't work there and I'm not a fan of unions but this makes me want to vote YES.

Re: Amazon Sends ‘Vote No’ Instructions to Unionizing Employees

#200
I can't believe some of these actions being taken by Amazon don't violate the NLRA. Maybe they've done the math and have concluded that any protentional penalties will cost less than allowing a fair shake at a union or maybe they think the recently packed courts will tend to favor corporate interests over workers' rights.
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