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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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621–630 of 684 posts

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, their definition of a millionaire is someone with a net worth of greater than a million dollars. That's also my working definition of a millionaire, and I thought was the definition of a millionaire. Can you provide your definition so that I can frame your comments with it?

Sorry, I should have said the metric of a millionaire as defined buy $1M in a 401k is not saying much. Having $1M after decades of working at or near retirement age is the bare minimum one needs for a “decent” retirement if they want to continue their lifestyle. I know 90% of Americans don’t come close to it, but if you want security of quality of life and not worry about medical expenses, $1M will not go far in many…

Some doctors can get the several hundred thousand dollars, but many of them fall for scam investments and lose it all in them. Teachers are more likely be investing in safer things than a real estate deal. An index fund (or similar) will give you more diversity for the same investment and so is a lot safer, it won't grow as fast in the best case, but it won't drop nearly as far in the worst case. (I recommend target date retirement funds these days for even better diversity).

Not that real estate is a bad investment, but a single high value deal has no diversity and so it a bad investment. If you are putting several hundred thousand into a single investment your net worth really should be closer to ten million than one.

Note that I said some doctors above. If only 1% of doctors are good with money/investments, that is a lot of doctors, and they will in general have more money than any teacher.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#622
post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have kids. You step up. Yes it's hard, but it's your absolute unshakeable duty to do your best by them. Putting them down to sleep away from you and then expecting them to suck it up and deal with it when they get distressed is one of the most idiotic things that I hear otherwise intelligent people say. To a child, separation from their parents is the most stressful experience possible because in the wild separat…

> Putting them down to sleep away from you and then expecting them to suck it up and deal with it when they get distressed is one of the most idiotic things that I hear otherwise intelligent people say This is exactly the kind of "common sense reasoning" put-down that makes parenting so challenging. Do you actually know -- I mean, have actual evidence of harm? Obviously it "sounds idiotic". But bloodletting to reduce…

> I mean, have actual evidence

If you go to a psychologist with a pretty broad spectrum of issues it turns out a lot of the problems are created when you are very little. An unsafe bond is hard to quantify and by stubbornly demanding that it is quantified I think it is more clear that you don't want to entertain the idea than that you are actually skeptical.

You already know you value the parents more than the child, and you more or less know what cannot be provided by the other party. So that's what you demand, and then when things turn out as you know they will you point at it and say "See? You're being unreasonable". That's bad-faith arguing.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income doesn't equate to wealth. You have to look at the other side of the equation, outgo, to determine what someone's net worth is. In addition to student loans, there's the house payment. People tend to buy a house based on what they can be approved for, not based off of a budget number they developed before talking to a bank. A 300k salary will get you pre-approved for a a lot of house in the US. Docs and Lawyers…

Docs are conspicuously missing. Student loans are the reason for this. Physicians have to pay a great deal for school in USA.

At the amount doctors make they can pay that off in a few years. Student loans are [can be] big for doctors, but they are only a couple years after tax income even at the most expensive schools.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#624

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is trade-offs. Less consistent sleep (for both the baby and the parents) is also clearly problematic.

In my experience, babies will get enough sleep one way or another, with or without "sleep training", though it may not be on a consistent or convenient schedule. Parents can easily get enough sleep as well. It's called "sleeping when the baby sleeps". Infants sleep like 15 hours per day, so it isn't hard. You just can't conform to any kind of a schedule-- that's the tradeoff, not getting enough sleep.

> Parents can easily get enough sleep as well. It's called "sleeping when the baby sleeps".

I did this with a puppy (when they're little they'll wake you every 90m at night) instead of putting her into a cage and once you figure it out it's really not that much worse than sleeping through the night. Perhaps doing that for a few months is measurably different from doing it for a year or so, but I seriously doubt it as chronic sleep deprivation (which I would have had if I had not adapted to the schedule) starts being very harmful very obviously quite a bit before "a few months".

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#625
post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

To me, it’s very simple: I work and my wife works. After some maternity/paternity leave, we both need to get to work again to earn money to provide our kids with food, shelter, a future etc. To be able to work, we need to sleep. For us to sleep, our kids and the baby needs to sleep. So we put the baby in his own room on day three. Always had him sleep in his bed in his room. Didn’t let him sleep anywhere else (or whe…

If you can't both give up time to care for the baby 50% of the time (as opposed to one giving up all the time for 100% of the care, which definitely is backwards) then you have to realistically consider whether or not you should argue online that this is peak parenting. If you don't have time for your children, don't have them.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing quality of life with money saved for a rainy day. So long as the income holds out they are not much different, but when bad times come one is in trouble

Who is not much different? Surely having six figures of extra free cash flow makes a different in quality of life compared to 80% of the population.

How is flying first class to your cruise ship where you have to most expensive cabin (complete with a full size grand piano) a higher quality of life than a week camping in a nearby state park? The first vacation will set you back at least $20,000, the second $300.

If you are asking about the difference between $10k and $20k that is a big difference. If you are asking about $60k vs $600k, the difference is not nearly as big even though the first is double, with the second is 10x.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#627
post #372
post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Children in the West today already spend more time with parents than at any point in the past That's not what the article says. It compares to just 50 years ago, which is well into the industrialized world of two working parents in the office away from home. Just a bit farther back, like with my grandparents era, kids grew up on the family farm, with their parents 24x7, learning by example from them.

How much of that "24x7" time was actually time spent together? When I was growing up kids and adults barely interacted with each other, most of the time kid(s) would be in one area of the house (or outside) doing their own thing and adult(s) would be somewhere else doing their own thing. This wasn't just my house either, it was normal. Nowadays it's totally the opposite (and it's completely insane)

That's exactly what i meant with Adventure preparers, and not the Kids Entertainers :)

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#628

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I look forward to your GWAS results!

I look forward to a helpful reply to a question. Instead of snark.

I suppose that's fair. Trivial literature review shows that there's nothing remotely resembling a discrete "SIDS gene", and that while there probably are genomic variations that can pose a subtle elevation of risk, that risk can't be evaluated outside the context of a given infant's environment and its effect on the likelihood of any such risk to materialize into SIDS proper. That genomic risk is so subtle that it can't even be quantified in the case of an individual infant; it's only discernible via broad whole-genome studies, and even their comprehensiveness and interpretation remains an open question [1].

So, in short, the framing of your prior comment, in which it can be cultural or it can be genetic, fails to capture the current best understanding - which is that it very probably is both cultural and genetic, and very probably as much or more the former than the latter.

The snark probably isn't all that justified, I grant. But I don't like the attitude of genetic essentialism toward which your prior formulation gestures. That kind of thinking is fully a century out of date at this point, and the extent of harm it's done in the world during and since its heyday strikes me as ample reason to regard it with suspicious distaste. In another context I doubt I would give it such a curt and pithy response, but I think a higher than usual epistemological standard is fair here, and the research I've just summarized for you is literally a single Google search away.

On the other hand, to construct that Google search requires that one know the term "GWAS" and what it means, so perhaps I've treated you a bit more harshly than you deserved. Still only a bit, though, I think; the kind of genetic essentialism I decry might have seemed reasonable a century ago, but these days it's sloppy thinking at best.

Worse, that same imputation of clear and discrete gene-level variation in complex, often behavioral, traits, across whole human populations, without any reproductive isolation to make such an idea even barely plausible even in a case where we're talking about traits that might potentially be primarily gene-linked - we call that "eugenics", a pseudoscience whose utter epistemological baselessness and staggering moral hazard are at this point I think clearly enough understood as to require no enumeration for anyone with even a rudimentary sense of history - at least I hope they are! If I'm wrong about that, we're all in for a deal of horror.

In any case, I suppose I've committed the error of expecting someone to know more than perhaps was reasonable, so I'll apologize for that. What you said deserved a critical response, rather than the glib one I initially gave it. I hope I've improved somewhat on that initial response here.

[1] https://genomemedicine.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/gm... (2010, conclusions incrementally refined by later literature)

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#629
post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So much of the "research" is not research at all. It's no surprise to see anti-vaccine sentiment run strong among Grace Manning-Devlin types.

It's true. Yet another hard thing about being a parent is that there is a lot of crappy "research" and advice to wade through (including most of the research claiming to support your view, btw). But there's some solid stuff out there too--pretending there isn't because you might reach conclusions that conflict with a self-serving parenting philosophy is just another excuse.

Your advice in this thread falls into that category. You take some sort of puritanical ideal of hard work and sacrifice, then apply it to build a... distorted idea of what parenting is and to abstractly shame people who don't fit it, then ignore all requests for references to any research at all done on this, then repeat this over and over with everyone who's trying to figure out what you mean. From what I know, your ideas have no basis in reality. You're only adding noise for parents-to-be to sift through and worry about.

Just raise your kids with love and patience, don't listen to armchair child psychiatrists.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#630
post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

The struggle we’re having is the baby scratches himself nonstop. No matter how much we trim his nails, if we leave him alone at night he’ll be bleeding everywhere. Other than that he sleeps relatively well.

Have you tried baby mittens? It looks like a pouch, there are no individual fingers on the mittens. We put those on our baby to avoid the scratching problem. Here is an example: https://www.amazon.com/RATIVE-Newborn-Scratch-Mittens-9-pair...
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