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Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

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Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#171

Post by hntrader »

aaron695 wrote: post #156
hntrader wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not clear to me from the quotes you provided why you think she's lying? She said she was sterilized in 2019 at the age of 36 after having given birth to five or more children. I don't see anything especially suspicious there.

Istanbul in in Turkey. As per NYT she fled to Istanbul, to give birth. This is why she has not seen her children, she is in Istanbul. Kalbinur Tursun might be a made up name being used for Uyghurs being interviewed. It's probably two people. I see now the Chinese government have stated the original Kalbinur Tursun was a pseudonym - http://jeddah.china-consulate.org/eng/zt/xjfk/t1767403.htm

Got it. Something is off in the facts of that story for sure. She left Xinjiang in 2019, and the article says that she handed her children off as she left. Then the article claims she hasn't seen her children for years. These facts can't all be true simultaneously, at least one of them must be false, unless they mean she hasn't seen her children for 1.5 years?

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#172

Post by andrepd »

ygjb wrote: post #62
nickff wrote: post #4

Interesting that the parliament went ahead with a vote, from which the 'leadership' (cabinet) abstained; I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. >"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and almost all of his cabinet colleagues were absent for the vote. Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau was the only cabinet minister present. When it was his turn, he said he abstained "on behalf of the Government of Canada." "

It's pretty straightforward; from 2012-2015 the previous government, led by Stephen Harper (Prime Minister), and in partnership with Erin O'Toole (at the time Parliamentary Secretary with oversight over International Trade) negotiated a trade agreement with China [1]. Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canad…

> Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canada in a tribunal that is separate from both Canadian and Chinese court systems; these tribunals have broad authority to mark the findings as confidential, keeping the rulings and outcomes, including financial penalties secret.

And people still think they live in democracies.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#173

Post by chrisseaton »

refurb wrote: post #164
chrisseaton wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How would be prevent them from voting or force them to abstain? He doesn't have the power to do that. Also, back-bench MPs speak on behalf of their constituencies more than on behalf of the government.

Of course he has that power. Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. Typically it’s always party line unless they otherwise allow it. And you can be booted from the party for not voting party lines.

> Of course he has that power.

This isn't true.

> Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems.

People choosing to vote party lines, yes.

They can boot you out of the party, but they still can't require you to vote a certain way. People choose to vote party lines, but they're not forced to. If you don't vote how your party wants the worst they can do is not let you be in their party any more.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#174

Post by refurb »

chrisseaton wrote: post #173
refurb wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course he has that power. Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. Typically it’s always party line unless they otherwise allow it. And you can be booted from the party for not voting party lines.

> Of course he has that power. This isn't true. > Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. People choosing to vote party lines, yes. They can boot you out of the party, but they still can't require you to vote a certain way. People choose to vote party lines, but they're not forced to. If you don't vote how your party wants the worst they can do is not let you be in their party any more.

Right. Which means most MPs change their vote so they vote with their party.

I mean, if you want to leave you house but I threaten to beat you if you do - does that mean I can’t really stop you from leaving? Seems like I just did.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#175

Post by DanBC »

dilap wrote: post #94

They're using "genocide" in the same sense of the word as people who allege "white genocide", i.e., to mean that policies are reducing fertility of a certain demographic. Specifically, they allege: > the use of arbitrary detention, political re-education, forced labour, torture and forced sterilization The traditional, dictionary definition of genocide is "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a par…

> In contemporary international law the crime of genocide is part of the broader category of “crimes against humanity,” which were defined by the Charter of the International Military Tribunal (Nürnberg Charter). The charter granted the tribunal jurisdiction to indict and try the leaders of the Nazi (Nazi Party) regime for inhumane acts committed against civilians, as well as for acts of persecution on political, racial, or religious grounds; in so doing, it also contributed to the international criminalization of other forms of abusive conduct. The momentum created by the Nürnberg trials and the ensuing revelations of Nazi atrocities led to the passage by the United Nations (UN) General Assembly of Resolution 96-I (December 1946), which made the crime of genocide punishable under international law, and of Resolution 260-III (December 1948), which approved the text of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, the first UN human rights treaty. The convention, which entered into force in 1951, has been ratified by more than 130 countries. Although the United States played a major role in drafting the convention and was an original signatory, the U.S. Senate did not ratify it until 1988.

> Article 2 of the convention defines genocide as

> any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

> (a) Killing members of the group;

> (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

> (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

> (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

> (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

This is from Encyclopaedia Britannica 2010

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#176

Post by neartheplain »

throw373782 wrote: post #68

[flagged]

The Gray Zone is not a trustworthy news source.

To start, Gray Zone founder Max Blumenthal attended the same expenses-paid 2015 gala in Russia, celebrating RT's 10-year anniversary, at which Jill Stein and Mike Flynn were photographed sitting with Vladimir Putin. Like Flynn, Blumenthal was paid to be there:

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2017/05/flynn-putin-din...

One month after the gala, Blumenthal founded The Gray Zone. At this time he did a 180 from his earlier anti-Assad reporting to become one of that dictator's biggest supporters:

https://www.commentarymagazine.com/articles/bruce-bawer/usef...

The Gray Zone also publishes pro-dictator reports on Venezuela, another ally of the Russian government. Here's a 2019 video of Blumenthal personally & cheerfully receiving honors from Venezuelan President Nicolás Maduro, who has ruled that country by violence and decree since 2015:

https://twitter.com/NicolasMaduro/status/1156588153945427970

Here's a piece that goes into detail on shortcomings in The Gray Zone's Venezuela reporting. Blumenthal and his employees have denied the existence of that country's ongoing humanitarian crisis, in which 20% of the Venezuelan population has fled the country as economic refugees:

https://medium.com/muros-invisibles/grayzone-grifters-and-th...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_refugee_crisis

Not all of The Gray Zone's reporting is flawed, but there's enough to make me seriously question their aims and journalistic integrity. Their source of funding remains obscure. They don't run ads, don't sell subscriptions, and their Patreon is tiny, yet they're flying people all over the world. Blumenthal is also now a frequent Sputnik and RT contributor. It's my suspicion that they're a propaganda outlet aimed at Western skeptics, the anti-war crowd, and intellectuals.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#177

Post by macspoofing »

chrisseaton wrote: post #173
refurb wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course he has that power. Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. Typically it’s always party line unless they otherwise allow it. And you can be booted from the party for not voting party lines.

> Of course he has that power. This isn't true. > Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. People choosing to vote party lines, yes. They can boot you out of the party, but they still can't require you to vote a certain way. People choose to vote party lines, but they're not forced to. If you don't vote how your party wants the worst they can do is not let you be in their party any more.

I don't understand what you're arguing. In the Westminster System generally, and the Canadian variant specifically, the leader of the party holds immense power.

Obviously there is no legal requirement for MPs to vote a certain way, but in practice the party leader, and the whip will force votes it deems important from party members . And yes, getting kicked out of the party or losing cabinet or committee assignments is normal punishment for insubordination. The end result is that MPs are much more disciplined around voting along party lines than, for example, House members are under the American system. In fact, the American Congress is a wild-west compared to the strict discipline you find in the Canadian Parliamentary system. You would never see a Joe Manchin-type of behaviour when a party member breaks ranks to vote against a candidate pushed by the party leader (or whatever the equivalent would be in the Canadian system). That never happens.

I suspect that Trudeau in this case wanted to have his cake and eat it to. He allowed a free vote for Liberal MPs while he and leadership abstained. This way he isn't on record one way or the other and therefore limits how pissed China would be, and at the same time limit the amount of criticism he would get from opposition had he forced a particular vote on his MPs.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#178

Post by [deleted] »

refurb wrote: post #174
chrisseaton wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course he has that power. This isn't true. > Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. People choosing to vote party lines, yes. They can boot you out of the party, but they still can't require you to vote a certain way. People choose to vote party lines, but they're not forced to. If you don't vote how your party wants the worst they can do is not let you be in their party any more.

Right. Which means most MPs change their vote so they vote with their party. I mean, if you want to leave you house but I threaten to beat you if you do - does that mean I can’t really stop you from leaving? Seems like I just did.

[deleted]

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#179

Post by [deleted] »

macspoofing wrote: post #177
chrisseaton wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course he has that power. This isn't true. > Voting party lines is much more of a thing in parliamentary systems. People choosing to vote party lines, yes. They can boot you out of the party, but they still can't require you to vote a certain way. People choose to vote party lines, but they're not forced to. If you don't vote how your party wants the worst they can do is not let you be in their party any more.

I don't understand what you're arguing. In the Westminster System generally, and the Canadian variant specifically, the leader of the party holds immense power. Obviously there is no legal requirement for MPs to vote a certain way, but in practice the party leader, and the whip will force votes it deems important from party members . And yes, getting kicked out of the party or losing cabinet or committee assignments…

[deleted]

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#180

Post by [deleted] »

shitgoose wrote: post #170
chrisseaton wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You cannot force an MP to vote in any particular way. You can only retaliate afterward.

They can't force an MP to vote in a particular way, but they can fire them, like O'Tool (leader of CA Conservative party) recently fired Poilievre and Sloan, or Ford (ON PC) fired Roman Baber for dissent.

[deleted]
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