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Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

amberwilson.co.uk

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Re: Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

#11

Post by bwclk »

rascul wrote: post #8
bwclk wrote: post #7

Becoming a "citizen of the IndieWeb"† seems to require you to be a web developer. Level 1 requires knowledge of HTML, or a CMS that exposes the rel attribute on links (is that common?). Level 2 requires specific CSS classes and... more than I can summarize succinctly here. And there's still Level 3 to go. It's hard to see this growing beyond web developers unless it's baked into other software as an incidental. † htt…

There is a list [0] which may be informative. Known [1] implements a number of IndieWeb things, and there are Wordpress plugins. [2] [0] https://indieweb.org/projects [1] https://withknown.com/ [2] https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins

Those don't really steer it out of web developer territory though, do they? Known's an SSG, and unless WordPress has grown a lot I doubt it's a complete solution (not theme dependant, etc).

That meta chat room is something. Is that how you came to this thread? It's strange to see dismissive comments in there but no outreach to the sources of them. Feels very cliquey.

Re: Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

#12

Post by rascul »

bwclk wrote: post #11
rascul wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a list [0] which may be informative. Known [1] implements a number of IndieWeb things, and there are Wordpress plugins. [2] [0] https://indieweb.org/projects [1] https://withknown.com/ [2] https://indieweb.org/WordPress/Plugins

Those don't really steer it out of web developer territory though, do they? Known's an SSG, and unless WordPress has grown a lot I doubt it's a complete solution (not theme dependant, etc). That meta chat room is something. Is that how you came to this thread? It's strange to see dismissive comments in there but no outreach to the sources of them. Feels very cliquey.

> Known's an SSG

Is SSG a static site generator? I'm pretty sure Known is a SQL database backed dynamic kind of thing. I looked at it several years ago and I don't remember it being static.

> unless WordPress has grown a lot I doubt it's a complete solution (not theme dependant, etc)

I know very little about WordPress. I do know there are IndieWeb plugins for it. To what extent WordPress might be a solution for you, I wouldn't have any idea.

> That meta chat room is something. Is that how you came to this thread?

I wasn't in the chat room. IndieWeb is something that I've had some interest in and I generally look at posts here about IndieWeb related stuff when they show up from time to time.

Re: Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

#13

Post by bwclk »

rascul wrote: post #12
bwclk wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those don't really steer it out of web developer territory though, do they? Known's an SSG, and unless WordPress has grown a lot I doubt it's a complete solution (not theme dependant, etc). That meta chat room is something. Is that how you came to this thread? It's strange to see dismissive comments in there but no outreach to the sources of them. Feels very cliquey.

> Known's an SSG Is SSG a static site generator? I'm pretty sure Known is a SQL database backed dynamic kind of thing. I looked at it several years ago and I don't remember it being static. > unless WordPress has grown a lot I doubt it's a complete solution (not theme dependant, etc) I know very little about WordPress. I do know there are IndieWeb plugins for it. To what extent WordPress might be a solution for you,…

> Is SSG a static site generator? I'm pretty sure Known is a SQL database backed dynamic kind of thing. I looked at it several years ago and I don't remember it being static.

You're right, I glanced over it too quickly. Installing it is still too much for anyone without basic web development or system administration skills.

> I know very little about WordPress. I do know there are IndieWeb plugins for it. To what extent WordPress might be usable for you, I wouldn't have any idea.

From the chat log it's my understanding that the theme handles markup as opposed to plugins. So it seems unlikely that you could rely on plugins alone to get full functionality.

Re: Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

#14

Post by luord »

Last weekend I decided to remove all third party services/javascript from my website, replacing them with external links (for the share button or the contact form), nothing (for google analytics[1]) or with web mentions (for disqus).

Not sure how viable it is since it was actually more work than I thought it'd be, but at least I feel better now about my site not loading external stuff and setting unnecessary cookies. Now I guess I should actually write more stuff to see if I get mentions (and to test how vulnerable to spam it is, I suppose). I haven't ruled out looking into other ways to implement federated comment systems—or similar, like web mentions—though[2].

[1]: That said, I'm using cloudflare so I guess I do get its analytics.

[2]: And there's always the self-hosted option.

Re: Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

#17

Post by gobengo »

bastawhiz wrote: post #15

This sounds a lot like pingbacks, which have been around for decades. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pingback

Yes when we were standardizing Webmentions we all knew that. Personally, because I got started coding in 2005 around the time they became popular for blogs (https://www.hixie.ch/specs/pingback/pingback), but 'pingback' isn't always well defined (by one nonprofit org's IP), it involves XML-RPC (while form-urlencoded works fine and is simpler for limited scope), and the W3C Social WG charter read as somewhat instructive to prefer JSON or form-urlencoded encodings to XML. https://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter

Somewhat similar story with how 'WebSub sure looks a lot like PubSubHubBub' https://www.w3.org/TR/websub/ https://pubsubhubbub.github.io/PubSubHubbub/pubsubhubbub-cor...

Or how "ActivityPub targeting and delivery sure looks like Linked Data Notifications" https://www.w3.org/TR/activitypub/#h-note-9 https://www.w3.org/TR/ldn/

Re: Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

#18

Post by kstrauser »

luord wrote: post #14

Last weekend I decided to remove all third party services/javascript from my website, replacing them with external links (for the share button or the contact form), nothing (for google analytics[1]) or with web mentions (for disqus). Not sure how viable it is since it was actually more work than I thought it'd be, but at least I feel better now about my site not loading external stuff and setting unnecessary cookies.…

I set up a Matomo server and use it for my own analytics. I like the information it gives, and love that no one but me has access to any of the data.

Re: Grow the IndieWeb with Webmentions

#20

Post by gobengo »

giantrobot wrote: post #10
danellis wrote: post #6

Is this web rings again?

Pingbacks. Same spam potential but POSTs rather than XML-RPC.

I think it's a reasonable approach to consider spam as an authorization issue, and authorization was left to extensions, but generally it could involve oauth2/oidc + dynamic client registration + any policy of allowlisting webmention senders
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