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The unusual ways Western parents raise children

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Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#511

Post by souprock »

leokennis wrote: post #423
gdubs wrote: post #171

One of the hardest thing about being a parent today is the constant shame and confusion about the “right” way to do it. We don’t live in a hunter gatherer society anymore, we just don’t. There’s lots of wisdom in that way of life, and sure we could learn from it — but there’s enough anxiety as it is, parents don’t need more of it. We have three kids and we sleep trained them. (Not a pediatrician, standard disclaimer.…

To me, it’s very simple: I work and my wife works. After some maternity/paternity leave, we both need to get to work again to earn money to provide our kids with food, shelter, a future etc. To be able to work, we need to sleep. For us to sleep, our kids and the baby needs to sleep. So we put the baby in his own room on day three. Always had him sleep in his bed in his room. Didn’t let him sleep anywhere else (or whe…

That situation is choice, pure and simple. You appear to be some sort of web or database developer, or possibly a system administrator. You can afford to support a family.

The problem is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keeping_up_with_the_Joneses

You forgo a lot to keep up with the Joneses. Family time gets cut.

If that's the choice you really wish to make, OK. If not, cut costs until you can live a different sort of life. Hints: entertainment, restaurants, high rent, excessive travel, single-use items, services, the expenses due to that extra job, etc.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#512

Post by xyzzyz »

meowster wrote: post #181
xyzzyz wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The salaries were not more competitive than they are now. Families who raised children on one income back then quite simply expected and did with much less than single income families do today, not to mention with how much two income families make today.

I'm on my phone and I'm having a hard time finding a single source that shows this, and it's possible that I can't find it because it doesn't exist, but I have found that housing prices have outpaced wages, car prices have outpaced wages, and tuition prices have outpaced wages (though tuition prices is a whole different issue). Real Wages, which accounts for inflation, have barely budged. It seems like both parents w…

Real Wages, which accounts for inflation, have barely budged.

If real wages have barely budged, it means precisely that it is exactly as affordable to buy a basket of goods as it used to be. You can't argue both that all costs have outpaced wages, and that the real wage hasn't budged, because this is just logically contradictory.

It seems like both parents work to pay for child costs that exist because both parents work.

Yes, it is often the case that the income of one parent is just about enough to cover the cost of child care necessary to enable this work. This is usually justified by positing that this is necessary for the career growth of the second parent. This makes perfect sense, but my point is that people used to expect less in the past, and one of the things that they didn't expect was good career growth of both parents.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#513

Post by asdff »

sdevonoes wrote: post #121
alistairSH wrote: post #29

Of all the "weird" things we do as parents in euro/anglo nations, sleeping arrangements seems nowhere near the top. IMO, the top "offender" is over-scheduling kid's activities. So many kids in my area have their days booked solid with sports, academic tutoring, music lessons. Approaching zero free time to enjoy being a kid. Edit - and this isn't really a western thing, "Tiger Mom" and similar probably pre-dates this…

Best decision my parents made for me when I was kid: no extra activities after school, no summer camps, no music lessons, etc, no soccer teams, etc. I did have "unofficial summer camps", I did play some music instruments (without teachers), I did play a lot of soccer (without teams, just in the street)... I (and the kids in my neighbourhood) did all of these without adults.

Not everyone grows up in a neighborhood with kids their age.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#514

Post by [deleted] »

alistairSH wrote: post #101
meowster wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I volunteer with a U.S. Scout troop. I see boys that don't know whether or not they can go on an activity/campout because they have to ask their parents if they're free that day/weekend. I try to tell them their old enough (most are teenagers) that they should start deciding for themselves what activities they participate in. Most all of them just seem apathetic. I'm sure their parents are trying to do what is best f…

It's all so strange to me. My son (now 26) always had summers free at minimum. While he was younger, he did go to a YMCA outdoor "adventure" day camp at a nearby lake park. Once he was in middle school, he stayed home. Sports 2-3 seasons, but he got to pick which one he played and never the crazy travel league stuff. In high school, he was free to do what he wanted (football for 2 years, guitar all 4, and a mix of re…

[deleted]

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#515

Post by asdff »

Aunche wrote: post #340

One thing that I find weird about the Western (perhaps just American) way of raising kids is that the retired population is surprisingly uninvolved in the raising of their grandchildren. It seems like an economic inefficiency when parents are spending so much money on childcare while old people are feeling increasingly lonely.

The American family is notoriously unrooted and migratory. People scatter after college and while looking for work. For those that live near their grandchildren, they are as involved as anywhere else I would imagine.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#516

Post by gnicholas »

Highly recommend the work of economist Emily Oster, [1] who digs into the data around popular/important questions related to pregnancy/childhood.

She looks at the 'popular wisdom' and then analyzes the relevant data. Her goal is to give parents information they can use to make informed choices about relative risk. Should you drink at all while pregnant? Is sleep training terrible (or amazing)?

Dr. Oster gives nuanced answers to questions that are too often addressed as categorical imperatives.

https://emilyoster.net/

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#517

Post by Talanes »

CodeGlitch wrote: post #358
eurusdac wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think SIDS is a real thing and there is clear evidence that not using pillows or excessive blankets in cribs has reduced deaths. I think sleeping with or not with your kid, is a much more complicated question and probably one where your instinct is right. After all, with a baby in the bed you can't help but be aware of its comfort, needs and amount of movement.

In the UK the NHS have posters and leaflets about how parents should NOT sleep with their baby as deaths have occurred from parents "lying on and suffocating their new born". Of course this from drugged-up and/or drunk parents. If you don't fall into the "bad parent" category you'll be fine.

I've woken up to nearly suffocating myself in blankets, completely sober. I wouldn't take that chance with myself in the bed.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#518

Post by toxik »

jl6 wrote: post #409
eurusdac wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, my advice to any new parent would be to listen carefully to advice about how not to drown your child while bathing them, and how to make sure they're not suffocated by their bedding. Both real issues where some simple practices avoid the small risk of an absolutely catastrophic outcome. Then take all other advice with a pinch of salt. Just follow your best instincts and do what seems right. Your child will b…

Generally agree, except I’m not sure there is a bright line between the obviously-worthwhile precautions you mention and the paranoid overprecautions that might themselves carry harm. Seatbelts... yes. Choking first aid... yes. Healthy eating, talking to them frequently... probably? Lots of sunlight and fresh air... maybe?

To be honest, the baby’s most important resource is the parents themselves. Sunlight and fresh air is good for that at least. Similarly, let somebody else take care of your baby every now and then so you can connect with your partner!

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#519

Post by voisin »

faitswulff wrote: post #426
secabeen wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accidentally smothered by their parents while they're deeply asleep This seems unlikely. 10% of babies share a sleep surface with parents, up from 6.5% in 1993, yet SIDS deaths are down over the same period: https://www.webmd.com/baby/news/20180212/baby-suffocation-de... https://www.cdc.gov/sids/data.htm

Smothering is a much bigger problem if the parents in question drink alcohol before cosleeping.

This! My wife did a lot of reading in this when our kids were babies and her takeaway was that alcohol/drugs are responsible for most smothering events and that SIDS is actually reduced by co-sleeping - something about the mother’s breathing training the baby to breathe rhythmically. I believe she found a study on this point - I’ll try to dig it up and if I find it I’ll edit this comment with a source.

Re: The unusual ways Western parents raise children

#520

Post by Talanes »

NovaJehovah wrote: post #389
bihla wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible you're coming from a very different background than me... I can understand your point of view if your context is being raised under real impoverished conditions; I agree a parent should do anything they can to meet a necessary level of stability for the child. But this comment makes me think of what is more likely familiar to members of this forum, where parents use their children to serve their own ego…

> the "wellbeing of your child" is not really a question Mental health, substance abuse, and suicide statistics, including among the middle and upper classes, would seem to strongly indicate otherwise. > It's possible you meant to make a more sympathetic point, but my first impression is that the comment espouses an actively harmful idea about the relation between parent and a child. So "try hard, make sacrifices, an…

Some of the most troubled people I've known had very involved parents.
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