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Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

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Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#131

Post by ygjb »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #101
ygjb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty straightforward; from 2012-2015 the previous government, led by Stephen Harper (Prime Minister), and in partnership with Erin O'Toole (at the time Parliamentary Secretary with oversight over International Trade) negotiated a trade agreement with China [1]. Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canad…

After reading that wiki article (i.e. not the actual treaty), it seems like any argument that Canada’s vote harms profitability of Chinese companies could be flipped around just as effectively. China’s restrictions harm Canadian media companies. So I don’t see why Canada should be all that worried about passing this law. I think it’s more likely just straight politics as usual. Trudeau might very well have done the s…

Here[1] is an article that illustrates how much China has invested in Canada. In contrast, Canada has invested very little. Canada has a great deal to lose by provoking China, and due to foreign policy implications in the United States under their previous administration, Canada was basically pushed into apprehending the CFO of Huawei. That went over well in China.

There is no doubt that there is a political motivation for doing this, but in particular this treaty presents a specific extra-judicial legal jeopardy for any government at any level in Canada for taking action against China.

[1] https://nationalpost.com/news/as-geopolitical-tensions-rise-...

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#132

Post by jcranmer »

dleslie wrote: post #119
jcranmer wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quickly reading the treaty itself (you can too at https://www.international.gc.ca/trade-commerce/trade-agreeme... ), I see this bit in 33(5)(c): > Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed [...] to prevent a Contracting Party from taking action in pursuance of its obligations under the United Nations Charter for the maintenance of international peace and security. Labeling an act as genocide and taking measures ag…

The tribunals are outside of the scope of the normal Canadian justice system and can act entirely in secret; there's no guarantee, really, that they can be counted on to agree that such a declaration is within the scope of that clause. We Canadians might not ever know how they ruled, if they ruled at all, and how much it cost us in total.

Again, reading the treaty quickly, I don't see any mention that the tribunals "can act entirely in secret." Actually, to the contrary, Article 28 does lay out:

> Where, after consulting with a disputing investor, a disputing Contracting Party determines that it is in the public interest to do so and notifies the Tribunal of that determination, hearings held under this Part shall be open to the public.

In other words, the tribunals are really no less secret than any other regular court case.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#133

Post by ygjb »

monkeybutton wrote: post #129
dleslie wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tribunals are outside of the scope of the normal Canadian justice system and can act entirely in secret; there's no guarantee, really, that they can be counted on to agree that such a declaration is within the scope of that clause. We Canadians might not ever know how they ruled, if they ruled at all, and how much it cost us in total.

To me, an average citizen, this sounds absolutely insane. Why is there a need for such secrecy? How does that benefit us?

It generally doesn't. As an example of what kind of things might be kept secret, take a look at the history of softwood lumber disputes and aluminum disputes between Canada and the United States.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#134

Post by dleslie »

jcranmer wrote: post #132
dleslie wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tribunals are outside of the scope of the normal Canadian justice system and can act entirely in secret; there's no guarantee, really, that they can be counted on to agree that such a declaration is within the scope of that clause. We Canadians might not ever know how they ruled, if they ruled at all, and how much it cost us in total.

Again, reading the treaty quickly, I don't see any mention that the tribunals "can act entirely in secret." Actually, to the contrary, Article 28 does lay out: > Where, after consulting with a disputing investor, a disputing Contracting Party determines that it is in the public interest to do so and notifies the Tribunal of that determination, hearings held under this Part shall be open to the public. In other words,…

Article 28 also states:

> Any Tribunal award under this Part shall be publicly available, subject to the redaction of confidential information.

> To the extent necessary to ensure the protection of confidential information, including business confidential information, the Tribunal may hold portions of hearings in camera.

> To the extent that a Tribunal’s confidentiality order designates information as confidential and a Contracting Party’s law on access to information requires public access to that information, the Contracting Party’s law on access to information shall prevail. However, a Contracting Party should endeavour to apply its law on access to information so as to protect information designated confidential by the Tribunal.

Article 33 states:

> Nothing in this Agreement shall be construed to require a Contracting Party to furnish or allow access to information the disclosure of which would impede law enforcement or would be contrary to the Contracting Party’s law protecting Cabinet confidences, personal privacy or the confidentiality of the financial affairs and accounts of individual customers of financial institutions.

That's more than enough rope to hang public access.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#135

Post by jcranmer »

dleslie wrote: post #134
jcranmer wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, reading the treaty quickly, I don't see any mention that the tribunals "can act entirely in secret." Actually, to the contrary, Article 28 does lay out: > Where, after consulting with a disputing investor, a disputing Contracting Party determines that it is in the public interest to do so and notifies the Tribunal of that determination, hearings held under this Part shall be open to the public. In other words,…

Article 28 also states: > Any Tribunal award under this Part shall be publicly available, subject to the redaction of confidential information. > To the extent necessary to ensure the protection of confidential information, including business confidential information, the Tribunal may hold portions of hearings in camera. > To the extent that a Tribunal’s confidentiality order designates information as confidential an…

Have you never seen regular court documents that are redacted or even sealed to protect confidential information? That clause is basically saying the tribunal has the power to do that.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#136

Post by vkou »

macspoofing wrote: post #126
ygjb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty straightforward; from 2012-2015 the previous government, led by Stephen Harper (Prime Minister), and in partnership with Erin O'Toole (at the time Parliamentary Secretary with oversight over International Trade) negotiated a trade agreement with China [1]. Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canad…

That still doesn't explain why Liberal MPs voted for the resolution. Presumably Trudeau could have prevented them from voting, or forced abstention.

Because it would have still passed, and they'd look bad in the press.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#137

Post by president »

abhinav22 wrote: post #2

Good to see a stand being taken. Hopefully allows for more pressure put on China to be more humane. Also I think there is too much us vs China going around - another war would be terrible, and even without a war, negative consequences could arise. One world should be the dream we aspire for.

The war has been waged for decades already and the west has already lost. This was a war fought with information, influence, and economic warfare. When you think about all the things you need to secure and defend one's country (e.g. PPE, pharmaceuticals, rare-earth minerals, manufacturing supply chains, patriotism, jobs, economic growth, geopolitical soft/hard power), you realize that China has all these things and America has none and is stuck battling itself over nonsense domestic issues.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#138

Post by fiona_kingfluff »

CogitoCogito wrote: post #101
ygjb wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's pretty straightforward; from 2012-2015 the previous government, led by Stephen Harper (Prime Minister), and in partnership with Erin O'Toole (at the time Parliamentary Secretary with oversight over International Trade) negotiated a trade agreement with China [1]. Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canad…

After reading that wiki article (i.e. not the actual treaty), it seems like any argument that Canada’s vote harms profitability of Chinese companies could be flipped around just as effectively. China’s restrictions harm Canadian media companies. So I don’t see why Canada should be all that worried about passing this law. I think it’s more likely just straight politics as usual. Trudeau might very well have done the s…

Also from the wiki article:

"Corporations from either country can sue if the country in which they have their operations has public policies even those intended on protecting the environment, health, or safety that the corporation says "interferes with the corporation’s profitability".[10]:23[5] Canada's risk of such lawsuits is much greater than China's, since "China's foreign direct investment in Canada is much higher than Canada's in China."[5] By 2015, Chinese foreign direct investment in Canada in 2015 was roughly three times the amount of Canadian investment in China."

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#139

Post by Dirlewanger »

abhinav22 wrote: post #2

Good to see a stand being taken. Hopefully allows for more pressure put on China to be more humane. Also I think there is too much us vs China going around - another war would be terrible, and even without a war, negative consequences could arise. One world should be the dream we aspire for.

We're in the beginnings of a new Cold War with China, and we're not winning.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#140

Post by Dirlewanger »

cbozeman wrote: post #60
federona wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no way to avoid another Cold War. A hot war is impossible. I am glad that the Soviet Union ceased to exist. I will be glad with China being contained. I will also be glad in a multi-lateral world where America does not go unchecked and can be held up by others to its ideals.

A hot war is most certainly not impossible. Just because nuclear weapons might be off the table doesn't mean conventional bombs aren't. And frankly, even nuclear weapons might not be off the table fully. Desperation leads people to do strange things. China really is a sort of "early 1900s Germany" stage, which is rather frightening.

There's also the whole frightening frame of thought that as people who were alive to see nuclear detonations being performed in the 50s/60s continue to die off, as a society we're going to slowly forget what makes nuclear weapons so awesome (in the original definition of the word), and the willpower around their restraint will slowly be eroded away until it's too late.
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