Live data from Hacker News

The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

forbes.com

291–300 of 1001 posts

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You misunderstand the purpose the F35- it is a jobs and pork program first and foremost, like SLS. It has the side benefit of keeping people trained to build this sort of thing, so SpaceX can hire them. We can build cool shit, but our government and most companies don't optimize for that.

More than that, thr SR-71 was purpose-built. That means fewer hands on thr steering wheel, and fewer compromises to achieve multiple missions. The F-35, by comparison, was a platform vehicle, with the base suited to adapting to a variety of capabilities and missions. That means more voices demanding priority of features, more expensive engineering to get a variety of polygon pegs into the same round hole, and many fi…

> The F-35, by comparison, was a platform vehicle, with the base suited to adapting to a variety of capabilities and missions. That means more voices demanding priority of features, more expensive engineering to get a variety of polygon pegs into the same round hole, and many first-of-its-kind features for a variety of ancillary tasks.

> No real surprise that it didn't work out.

For a humorous presentation of this, watch the movie Pentagon Wars:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXQ2lO3ieBA

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#292
post #218
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't see the US fighting China or Russia in a direct, conventional weapons conflict. How does it not escalate?

Doesn't matter if its direct or another proxy war, its still war.

Proxy wars are easier to avoid escalation. I suspect that's one of the main reasons for them.

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#293

> The Air Force a generation ago launched development of an affordable, lightweight fighter to replace hundreds of Cold War-vintage F-16s If that was the goal, then the moment the price tag on the F-35 was set, failure was admitted. According to this: https://www.investors.com/research/f35-fighter/ the price of an F-35 is about 80 Million USD. An F-16 goes for 30 Million USD: https://www.fool.com/investing/2020/08/24…

> An F-16 goes for 30 Million USD

The first number in the article is Taiwan purchases 66 F-16 for 8 billions, which gives it 121 mln price tag.

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#294

The saddest thing about all of this IMO is they have been working on this for 14 years, and how much money was spent/wasted? Now, read about Skunkworks - they were able to build the SR71 (without supercomputers) in less than half that time and for a fraction of the cost. This isn't just planes, this seems to be everything nowadays. Fission was discovered in 1938/1939 and we dropped two bombs on Japan in 1945. No chan…

They've been at this for more than 14 years. I was accidentally part of both the Boeing and Lockheed F-35 teams, and that was 23 years ago.

For a humorous take on the U.S. military platform problem, look for a movie called The Pentagon Wars [1] starring Kelsey Grammar and Cary Elwes. It came out in 1998, and very little has changed since then.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0144550/

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, a while back I was interested "where does billions we spend on national defense actually go" and I came to the conclusion that the DoD is really just a giant jobs program. Ultimately I think the reason we don't have things like flying cars is that the private sector gets stuck in local maxima (such as getting people to click ads) and in the public sector it's very hard to have focused time-blocked short term goa…

I keep seeing people say this. Maybe flying cars just don’t make sense? Wheels work really well when your engine dies. Have you seen people drive in 2d space? You want to add a z axis? What’s the efficiency of a small plane? Surely not better than a Prius. Edit: I looked it up and a Cessna gets ~15 mpg.

The average person does virtually no regular maintenance / checking of their car, even basics like tyre pressures and oil levels not being checked regularly, happy to leave as much as they possibly can for an annual check at the garage. There’s a shocking amount of people also happy to drive around ignoring warning lights flashing.

Imagine that scenario with tons of metal that could fall out of the sky when something fails.

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More than that, thr SR-71 was purpose-built. That means fewer hands on thr steering wheel, and fewer compromises to achieve multiple missions. The F-35, by comparison, was a platform vehicle, with the base suited to adapting to a variety of capabilities and missions. That means more voices demanding priority of features, more expensive engineering to get a variety of polygon pegs into the same round hole, and many fi…

>> More than that, thr SR-71 was purpose-built. Not really. The SR-71 was the final plane of an extended program called OXCART which created the A-12. The program was nominally to replace the U2, but even oxcart was within a large aircraft design plan. There was even a interceptor (YF-12) that was meant for shooting down Valkyrie-class mach3+ bombers. These aircraft were very similar to the 71, so similar that most p…

[deleted]

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#297
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But how do you translate that into hitting something going Mach 1 at 40k feet? A UAV capable of attacking a jet can exist. My point is that it would need to be a fully capable aircraft not something that can be produced cheaply and deployed in swarms. There's a lot of space in the sky.

At some point these jets must be at ground, not ? A swarm of UAVs can do a lot of damage on these situation.

How do you get those UAV's there? The combat radius of a F-35A (without drop tanks or refueling) is 1000km's. If this UAV is going to travel 1000km's then it's going to be quite big, expensive, and likely easy pickings for defending F-35's. If it's carried by something then that something too would be an easy target and would probably need to be escorted by something which would fight said fighter jets.

It's just really not that simple.

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like the European FCAS.

Yes but FCAS will take forever, repeating the mistakes of JSF by coupling everything in a giant program. The Chinese will have it by the end of the decade.

FCAS will be a combination of the F-35, Eurofighter and A-400M. I'd put money on at least 15 years of delay.

The Australians and Boeing have a fighter companion drone in the air already now. I didn#t follow that to closely, so. I also think that the manned component of FCAS, the fighter, might be ready earlier. And that fighter is everyting the French want from the program.

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#299
I disagree with the conclusions of this article, and feel that the author didn't provide nearly enough evidence to back up a pretty big claim. The notion that the F-35 is a high-end and expensive asset is not some new admission, nor does it mean it is a failure. While it was meant to be a lower-end plain initially, it hasn't been considered that way in a long time. And while I agree that the F-35 is expensive and we may need to supplement it with a lower-end fighter, that's hardly a failure. That's exactly why we ended up developing the F-16: because we needed a lower-end fighter to supplement the F-15.

There's plenty to criticize about the F-35, particularly about the procurement strategy and development cycle. But we are starting to see real results. The F-35 has performed very well in exercises like Red Flag. And I don't think you can understate the importance of the F-35B. Yes, it has markedly worse availability rates and maintenance issues than the other variants, but that's pretty common for STOVL aircraft, like the Harrier it is replacing. And not only is the F-35B the only stealth STOVL, it's also the first production STOVL aircraft capable of supersonic speed.

I also think it's weird to imply the reason the F-35 has failed (and I don't belive it has) because it's been made in three different variants. That really isn't the reason for all of these delays. There are several examples of aircraft being able to work in multiple roles, like the F-4 and the French Rafale. The fundamental issue is in avionics and logistics. All of these sensors and systems are very complex and difficult to integrate together. Any aircraft with a modern, full-featured AESA radar and IRST sensors sees a protracted development time.

In terms of purchasing new, lower-end aircraft, I do think that's a good idea. Depending on where you want that to fit in in terms of doctrine, you've got a couple of options. The USAF is already starting to purchase some F-15EX planes. It's got decent range, good performance in air-to-air and air-to-ground engagements, and it's based on a mature platform which should reduce costs and improve availability. But it's a fairly big beast, and operational costs will still be higher than legacy F-16s. The other option is to go with a genuine light fighter like the JAS-39 Gripen. Cheaper, much lower operational costs, and capable of operating from short, rudimentary runways, but shorter range and less payload capacity. I also think there's space for a "featherweight" plane, like the A-29. When we're engaging Taliban targets that don't have anti-aircraft defenses beyond small arms fire, a simple turboprop will get the job done efficiently and cheaply, and that frees up jets to be used in other theaters.

Re: The U.S. Air Force just admitted the F-35 stealth fighter has failed

#300

The saddest thing about all of this IMO is they have been working on this for 14 years, and how much money was spent/wasted? Now, read about Skunkworks - they were able to build the SR71 (without supercomputers) in less than half that time and for a fraction of the cost. This isn't just planes, this seems to be everything nowadays. Fission was discovered in 1938/1939 and we dropped two bombs on Japan in 1945. No chan…

Well your single customer is your paycheck and your deal with the devil. If you triple the price of what you really think it will take because the gov will be inflating dollar supply by double digits every year and you're working a 10 year project, then the gov may go for a different/multiple contractors. So you have to just milk the project for as long as you can beyond 10 years and hope you can dollar/cost over tim…

Since your customer also will bail you out when you fail what's the point in even trying? It's a lot more profitable to bill like your planes work, but to provide planes made out of cardboard.

Until you start executing companies (or CEOs) for incompetence you will keep getting the same results.

Post reply on HN