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Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

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Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#71

Post by ygjb »

omginternets wrote: post #65
dade_ wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is substantial evidence that organs are being removed from Uighurs while they are alive or are being killed for organ harvest. Depending on how much business the media organization does in China, it gets reported or not. I don't think China should get a pass because they only kill of the very annoying people or those with blood type matches. https://www.ibanet.org/Article/NewDetail.aspx?ArticleUid=0D8..…

That still doesn't make it genocide. To be clear, it makes it sickeningly evil, but insofar as distinctions matter, it isn't genocide. Genocide implies the intent of erasing a people from existence. Simply detaining them and subjecting them to torture -- however horrible that may be -- is insufficient to meet the definition. A better argument would be that of forced sterilization, but then you'd have to show that thi…

You are incorrect. The legal definition of genocide under the UN, and recognized as international law by ratified signatories is discussed here. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml

The reality is that child separation, sterilization, and the acts taken by the Chinese government to destroy Uigher connections to their cultural history meet the definition. Genocide isn't just about killing people, it's about obliterating a people and their culture, and you can't stop the definition at mass murder.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#72

Post by [deleted] »

wcarss wrote: post #20
AnimalMuppet wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we aspire to one world, and that one world is going to be persecuting minorities, who's going to stand up and tell the whole world that it's doing it wrong?

Not snark: in the ideal case, that would be the people.

[deleted]

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#73

Post by dleslie »

ygjb wrote: post #62
nickff wrote: post #4

Interesting that the parliament went ahead with a vote, from which the 'leadership' (cabinet) abstained; I wonder what's going on behind the scenes. >"Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and almost all of his cabinet colleagues were absent for the vote. Foreign Affairs Minister Marc Garneau was the only cabinet minister present. When it was his turn, he said he abstained "on behalf of the Government of Canada." "

It's pretty straightforward; from 2012-2015 the previous government, led by Stephen Harper (Prime Minister), and in partnership with Erin O'Toole (at the time Parliamentary Secretary with oversight over International Trade) negotiated a trade agreement with China [1]. Under this treaty, if the Canadian government takes actions that damage or undermine Chinese investment in Canada, then Chinese companies can sue Canad…

I wish more Canadians were aware of this.

It's easily the worst trade agreement we've signed in generations. Harper _really_ screwed us over.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#74

Post by 99_00 »

bigpumpkin wrote: post #59
99_00 wrote: post #14

What's Biden's position on this issue?

"I point out to him no American president can be sustained as a president if he doesn’t reflect the values of the United States, and so the idea I’m not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he’s doing with the Uighurs in western mountains of China, and Taiwan, trying to end the One China policy by making it forceful … I said, and, by the, he said, he – he gets it. Culturally there are differe…

"Culturally there are different norms that each country and their leaders are expected to follow."

On the face of it, this is shocking, disturbing, and disgusting. But I'm not prepared to pass judgment. Did he simply misspeak? Was there any clarification after the fact? Has the press followed up on this?

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#75

Post by duxup »

throw373782 wrote: post #68

[flagged]

>Uyghurs (mostly on Chinese social media) pushing back against the charge of “genocide” by US politicians and Western media. Some of them are even laughing at the absurdity of it.

I see these kind of strange examples posted. Like you posted, and others usually involve travel stories where the person was supposedly in the region and "didn't see anything".

The general idea here is that the oppression has reached the level of genocide... with that in mind:

Are people supposed to find an oppressed people showing up on video convincing of anything? Is the opposite even possible from inside China?

Does anyone find hostage videos convincing?

Is "laughing at the absurdity of it" supposed to convince people of something?

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#76

Post by omginternets »

user764743 wrote: post #19

Meanwhile at home, Canada tortures people. [1] [1] https://www.vice.com/en/article/93wj78/canada-is-torturing-i...

If you can't see the difference between this and what's happening in China, I don't know what to tell you.

We can agree that solitary confinement is also bad, and still think that China's treatment of Uighurs is much, much worse.

Your whatabboutism is not helpful. Nor is it original, deep or interesting, to be frank.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#77

Post by reedjosh »

thereare5lights wrote: post #67
reedjosh wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I point out to him no American president can be sustained as a president if he doesn’t reflect the values of the United States, and so the idea I’m not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he’s doing with the Uighurs in western mountains of China, and Taiwan, trying to end the One China policy by making it forceful … I said, and, by the, he said, he – he gets it. Culturally there are differe…

> Wow... Biden's stance is essentially it's a cultural difference. This is a prime example of how taking specific cuts of quotes can lead to wildly misleading conclusions. This is what he actually said: "I point out to him no American president can be sustained as a president if he doesn’t reflect the values of the United States, and so the idea I’m not going to speak out against what he’s doing in Hong Kong, what he…

Thanks for posting the whole thing. Kinda hard to follow in the video.

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#78

Post by redis_mlc »

federona wrote: post #64
cbozeman wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hot war is most certainly not impossible. Just because nuclear weapons might be off the table doesn't mean conventional bombs aren't. And frankly, even nuclear weapons might not be off the table fully. Desperation leads people to do strange things. China really is a sort of "early 1900s Germany" stage, which is rather frightening.

China is in some ways like pre-WWI Germany in that it does not have an empire and everyone else does so it wants one to. But Chinese are not starving due to sanctions and have not lost a war, etc. Chinese are doing well. China is just flexing its muscle because it can. That is all. Not because it needs to or that it's people are psychologically in fascism mode.

What you wrote demonstrates a superficial understanding.

> But Chinese are not starving due to sanctions

They are starving due to natural (floods and locusts) and manmade (dams) disasters. Pre-corona, China imported 30% of its food, and today it's over 50%. Mining their few harbors would starve half of their population to death in 6 months. China has basically no welfare programs for non-CCP citizens.

If Trump's policies are continued by Biden, China will also suffer financially and technology-wise. Trump's policies would have crumbled China in 4-8 years.

> Not because it needs to or that it's people are psychologically in fascism mode.

The CCP has to flex because of ideology. It has been in a quiet war with the US since Mao in the 1950's, and it needs to usurp and destroy the US to maintain absolute hold on power - there cannot be an alternative for people to compare to the CCP in their minds. That means an invasion of Taiwan ASAP and war with the US after that (China has more military ships now than the US, which is a certain sign of preparation for war.)

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#79

Post by TheCapn »

dominotw wrote: post #26

what happens next? Wouldn't this now imply canadians are now open to doing business with genocidal govt?

We continue to sell military equipment to Saudi Arabia despite objections to their actions in Yemen. A lot of what our gov't does is very ceremonial with no teeth

Re: Canada's parliament votes to label China's persecution of Uighurs as genocide

#80

Post by omginternets »

ygjb wrote: post #71
omginternets wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That still doesn't make it genocide. To be clear, it makes it sickeningly evil, but insofar as distinctions matter, it isn't genocide. Genocide implies the intent of erasing a people from existence. Simply detaining them and subjecting them to torture -- however horrible that may be -- is insufficient to meet the definition. A better argument would be that of forced sterilization, but then you'd have to show that thi…

You are incorrect. The legal definition of genocide under the UN, and recognized as international law by ratified signatories is discussed here. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml The reality is that child separation, sterilization, and the acts taken by the Chinese government to destroy Uigher connections to their cultural history meet the definition. Genocide isn't just about killing people, it…

You are mistaken. In fact, your link quite clearly supports my position (namely: that intent is key):

>In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: [...]

(Emphasis mine)

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