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The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

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Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#241

Post by fomine3 »

IkmoIkmo wrote: post #162
haspok wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's the point of "cars" that can't do at least 50mph/80kmh? You can't really use them in the city, because you get stuck in traffic just like everybody else. Here, a bicycle or a scooter / moped is the way to go - or public transport. You can't really use them on city speedways or circular roads, because you are too slow and hold everyone else up. And you can't use the cycle paths either. And motorways - just forg…

Price of purchase, price of ownership, price of use, is all a lot lower versus a car. Protection from rain as well as some traffic protection versus scooters/mopeds/bicycles, as well as speed versus a bike or slow moped, especially at certain times of the day and certain areas. Also easier to go with two people and to move more luggage or groceries, than on a bike or scooter or moped. More comfortable, too, e.g. havi…

I believe heating is most problematic for daily micro EVs in winter due to lower battery capacity, but adding capacity makes it not micro.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#242

Post by fomine3 »

Yaggo wrote: post #137
jgilias wrote: post #117

Norway was the first country where more than half of all new registered vehicles were electric in 2020. And if you look at the data, Norwegians pick EVs that look and drive like normal cars. https://www.statista.com/statistics/696530/ranking-of-electr... It's not like you can't buy the weird ones too. It's just that people don't seem to want to buy them. Maybe culture plays some role there, but I believe that there a…

There are probably multiple factors: - Norway is a rich country with high standard of living, people are used to drive "big" cars – Northern climate and terrain with lot of mountains probably plays a role, capable AWDs are popular - Low population density, plenty of space for cars, excluding small city centers - Electric is cheap in Norway due to hydro – Electric cars are "cheap" in Norway due to low tax & high GDP

I've heard that Norway/Finland already had block heater pole for car that's basically similar to charging station, is it true?

http://www.ieahev.org/by-country/finland-charging-infrastruc...

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#243

Post by fomine3 »

elric wrote: post #199
kleiba wrote: post #96

A problem with such tiny cars is that they cannot absorb enough kinetic energy in a crash. Although they cannot go very fast compared to traditional cars, a frontal collision between two tiny cars going at full speed will likely have severe outcomes for the drivers and passengers. Of course, it might get worse when they get hit by a faster driving traditional car.

That's such a red herring. Bigger cars are safer for the people in the bigger car, but way more dangerous for everyone else. Faster cars are more dangerous for everyone. The solution is smaller and slower cars. Not an arms race of whose tank has the best armour.

Arms race is bad but anyway we need trucks for logistics.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#244

Post by clusterfish »

brainless wrote: post #11

This is something I realized recently. I am in India and the number of small manufacturers who are making electric people movers is very high. These are not high speed vehicles, they are below 40 KM/h speed as I see them, but the big shift is that hundreds of small companies around India are producing and maintaining small electric vehicles, mostly locally. The drivers charge them at home at night or during longer lu…

Lack of regulations will do that. Meanwhile over here the only EVs from small producers are e-bikes because the regulations don't have a concept of low powered cars, and everything that doesn't qualify as an e-bike or a motor bike is regulated as a full car.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#245

Post by bagacrap »

gambiting wrote: post #127
Arainach wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when is 2% of global human CO2 emissions "only"? What single concentrated source has anywhere near such an impact?

Concrete alone is responsible for 8% of global CO2 emissions: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2019/feb/25/concrete-the-... Also the problem with the cargo ships isn't the CO2 - considering the amount of work they are doing they are the most efficient transport method we have. It's all about the sulfur emissions which are horrendous.

in comparison to getting rid of concrete, changing out a few big engines seems like a fruit that's practically fallen off the tree.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#246

Post by taneq »

ajnin wrote: post #165
taneq wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practical terms the GP poster is wrong. If you consider an internal combustion engine to be a single unit, an ICE-powered vehicle is of equivalent complexity to a battery electric vehicle. They both need body, suspension, steering, seats, etc. etc. The “ice-ness” adds effectively nothing to the build complexity from the overall vehicle builder’s standpoint.

You're forgetting the various fluids : oil, coolant and associated tubing, filtering and pumps, the radiator and fan, the starter/alternator, the gearbox, the transmission, the air filter, various belts ... Quite a bit more complex than the electrical alternative.

I'm not arguing that the internals of an ICE motor aren't more complex. From the vehicle builder's perspective, though:

- The oil lubrication system, starter/alternator, various belts, and gearbox (if front wheel drive) are typically part of the engine package so don't really impact complexity.

- Liquid cooling is required for EVs if they're going to perform equivalently to a modern ICE car.

- EVs contain high voltage / high current wiring that needs to be considered carefully in terms of crash safety.

I'm not against EVs here, I think they're great. But if you want more than the old "drop a forklift motor and some batteries into a donor car" DIY build, an EV isn't actually that much simpler to assemble.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#247

Post by bagacrap »

blackoil wrote: post #8
uncoder0 wrote: post #2

Those don't look too safe. I can't imagine you'd survive being hit by anything bigger than a mini in any of those boxes. Of course people are buying unsafe alternatives for a fraction of a price... disclaimer: not a tesla fanboy... I don't think they have the right hardware for FSD and that Musk is a bit too wrongheaded to admit that.

Think of these as replacement for Motorcycle and cycle. As safe with some added convenience.

But safety is legitimately why I don't own motorized two wheel vehicles. This is a real impediment to widespread adoption.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#248

Post by Yaggo »

fomine3 wrote: post #242
Yaggo wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are probably multiple factors: - Norway is a rich country with high standard of living, people are used to drive "big" cars – Northern climate and terrain with lot of mountains probably plays a role, capable AWDs are popular - Low population density, plenty of space for cars, excluding small city centers - Electric is cheap in Norway due to hydro – Electric cars are "cheap" in Norway due to low tax & high GDP

I've heard that Norway/Finland already had block heater pole for car that's basically similar to charging station, is it true? http://www.ieahev.org/by-country/finland-charging-infrastruc...

True, although often the older poles are wired only for 8 amps or so, needing re-wiring for safe EV charging. But the culture of "plugging in" the car already exists.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#249

Post by Yaggo »

Yaggo wrote: post #248
fomine3 wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard that Norway/Finland already had block heater pole for car that's basically similar to charging station, is it true? http://www.ieahev.org/by-country/finland-charging-infrastruc...

True, although often the older poles are wired only for 8 amps or so, needing re-wiring for safe EV charging. But the culture of "plugging in" the car already exists.

I live in Finland and drive a Tesla. I often hear people saying that EVs are "city cars" and not suitable elsewhere because of cold winter and long distances. Actually the opposite is true.

- In countryside people drive more by average -> more savings

- Practically every house has at least 3*25A power lines (230V) -> 11 kW charging from "red socket"

- EVs are just fine in winter because of quick remote pre-heating, no need to idle the engine etc

Btw, I just made a long trip in -20°C / -4°F. Of course the range is significantly shorter than in summer because heating needs energy, but there are no fundamental problems with the batteries itself.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#250

Post by [deleted] »

brainless wrote: post #72
justapassenger wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of those companies builds their own motors and batteries. They get them as kits, same as you can get ICE engines. It’s simpler to integrate, that’s for sure, but not orders of magnitude.

I am a software engineer and I am not crazy enough to build a minimal ICE vehicle. But after spending decent teenage and college years in battery and small motors, I am actually confident enough to build a 3 people mover, slow and all, but it will go. There really is an order of magnitude difference in the complexity. The typical ICE already has electric batteries and motors. But the EV does not have the ICE parts. N…

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