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Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

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Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#181
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the research community and I think you're significantly underetsimating the effect of firing Gebru and Mitchell. Machine learning is the hottest research area in computer science and ethics of ML is possibly its hottest subfield. And people pay attention to employers' actions. I think Microsoft Research is still feeling reputation effects from closing down its Silicon Valley lab 10 years ago with no warning. I…

> ethics of ML is possibly its hottest subfield. Is this really true? I don't see ethics in ML papers getting the same attention in major conferences as theoretical or experimental breakthroughs in deep / reinforcement learning. Don't get me wrong, ethics could be hot outside the ML academia, but I very much doubt it's something majority of grad students in ML are dying to get into.

Not sure, depends who you ask. But almost every deep learning and RL innovation opens a can of ethics worms...

Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#182
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm in the research community and I think you're significantly underetsimating the effect of firing Gebru and Mitchell. Machine learning is the hottest research area in computer science and ethics of ML is possibly its hottest subfield. And people pay attention to employers' actions. I think Microsoft Research is still feeling reputation effects from closing down its Silicon Valley lab 10 years ago with no warning. I…

In terms of attracting AI researchers, think of this: Gebru has very publicly got into fights with Yann LeCunn and now with Jeff Dean. If you are building AI, who would you rather build your team around, Dean/LeCunn or Gebru? If you are an AI researcher, do you want a join a team where one of the team members is in the habit of aggressively accusing other researchers of racism? Would you be worried that your research…

I don't think that's the right question. It's just about if Google can attract top researchers (or needs to).

Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#183
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All of us are replaceable That's a management illusion. Try to replace e.g. someone like Fabrice Bellard, Mike Pall or Claude Shannon. Of course such things happen in big companies, but mostly because management is too limited to properly assess the true value of certain individuals. But the article is actually about a different topic.

That's an ego illusion. It hurts to admit that we're not replaceable, but we are. The job might not get done as well, or done in a different way than we'd do it, but it'll still get done.

People are somewhere on the scale of greatness. At some point it becomes harder and harder to find replacements that will be able to get that job done. People are very capable to steer projects into failure.

Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#184
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you're wrong. Ethics and morals do exist. Money exists. Ideas exist in our brain, functionally. Are all these things _ideas_? Human creations? Sure. The universe is absolutely indifferent to us. But these _ideas_ have real-world impact, and I'm not indifferent to my own suffering. Societies function at the scale they do right now because there is enough overlap in how I perceive the world and how another random h…

my points still stand. History has shown us that defining ethics and writing them down merely spreads falsehood. I don't think we are actually better off morally now then 50 years ago. In some areas yes, in others we have regressed. (look at addiction rates now) Now to categorically state that ai ethics is as diverse as "traditional" ethics can't be true by definition. (mine, if you ask) As for killing random people…

I think you're missing the point I'm trying to make, which is that developing "fair" algorithms, is not about developing algs that are e.g. pro-white-black equality, it is about developing algs that have option of equality built-in. It is then up to the user of the algorithm (you, Google, whoever), to "input" what or who should be equal.

It just so happens that currently the "input" is racial and gender equality. That's a societal choice, and one that is likely to change if e.g. racial equality is achieved and some new inequality arises. Maybe eye-color-based discrimination, who knows.

More generally than "equality", AI Ethics research gives us tools to analyze current methods and see where they fail to meet our ethical standards.

> History has shown us that defining ethics and writing them down merely spreads falsehood

Humans have been trying to improve their own condition for as long as there have been humans. Collectively defining acceptable behaviors is a never-ending task. Does that mean we should not undertake it? Absolutely not!

Writing down ethics isn't about spreading falsehoods, it's about cooperation. Cooperation involves compromise:

> AI Ethical research can never be an accurate representation of the majority of humanity - or even the majority of its users! If it can it is not sustainable for any long period of time.

Laws can never be an accurate representation of the majority of humanity - or even the majority of its users! If it can it is not sustainable for any long period of time.

Culture can never be an accurate representation of the majority of humanity - or even the majority of its users! If it can it is not sustainable for any long period of time.

Morals can never be an accurate representation of the majority of humanity - or even the majority of its users! If it can it is not sustainable for any long period of time.

Do you see the pattern? Things change, that's normal. We still have laws, and culture and morals, but we adapt them to our needs. Are you suggesting we should simply reject anything that changes? You won't be left with much.

I'm still very much interested in improving my own condition. That includes pushing people to behave in ways which I think would do that. People have different interests and their condition is often at odds with other people's condition. This is the foundational difficulty of living in a society of more than 1 individual. Yet we 8 billion humans still manage to be fairly successful at it. I wonder why?

Cultures and morals change. Does that make the morals of the past falsehoods? Of course not. They're just different perspectives on the human condition, probably best suited to the material conditions of the past.

Calling someone today is often seen as rude when a text would suffice. This is due to our material conditions, the ubiquity of cellphones.

> It would be better to just admit ...

You're suggesting we should admit defeat? Give up and let Google maximize profit? AI is a wonderful tool that could improve the material conditions of most of humanity if used correctly. It could also be devastating. I'd rather it not be devastating, so I'm going to continue supporting people who try to do research into aligning AI with whatever ethics we collectively agree on.

> I don't think we are actually better off morally now then 50 years ago

This is pretty sad.

Don't confuse your own cynicism vis-à-vis big tech with some nihilistic historical inevitability. The global improvement of the material conditions of people in the last 50 years have enabled us to start asking for ourselves what morals we actually want on a global scale, rather than this exercise being left solely to a self-interested elite.

Regardless of how better off morally _you_ think we are or aren't now, the space of collective possibilities is now immensely larger, whether you like it or not. That, is wonderful.

Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#185
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article and i'm not following the argument delivered at all. There is no real proof to this. I'm following and reading research @ google (stuff like this https://ai.googleblog.com/ and other sources) for ages now and NOTHING indicates an 'implosion'. It is strong research with real and constant results. I have no idea why the autor would even consider using the word 'implode'. Its not rocket science that d…

> For the single reason that biased systems in certain areas will not deliver the results you need to use it properly. well, they produce happy numbers for papers and depending on the brainwash-level of a population, they might also sufficiently often do the "right thing" towards minorities that noone cares too much about, independent of whether it would stand a chance against objective evaluation.

It is research; It doesn't need to be perfect.

And the research they do is, even with this bias, ground breaking.

80% might be to get this thing running, 20% might be to finetune it for minorities.

When google started the ML stuff for translation, they did start with english, now they support much more languages than before.

Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#186
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also this is a management illusion. There is no evidence for this assumption. You don't even know the probability distribution. There is no reason to assume that the percentage is equally distributed across all firms or countries. And anyway, the article is about something else.

Then what is your distribution then? Those exceptional individuals are incredibly rare, like one or two in a generation. So you need to be Shannon-likes to be not replaced by some middle manager in a big corporate? Emm, if someone were this accomplished, why would they care about one employment? That is the wrong question to ask. Truth is, if Google thought they were not replaceable, it would not fire them this easil…

Much more people than you expect have at least one exceptional skill; from my observations I would say at least 20 to 30%; the more extraordinary skills per person, the rarer of course. And if indeed the human workforce were really such a generic, easily replaceable commodity, why do most companies, including Google, go to such great lengths in recruiting, with assessment centers and so on? And why are there so many unemployed IT specialists, for example in Germany, when at the same time the industry associations claim that jobs cannot be filled?

Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an ego illusion. It hurts to admit that we're not replaceable, but we are. The job might not get done as well, or done in a different way than we'd do it, but it'll still get done.

The job might not get done as well, or done in a different way than we'd do it, but it'll still get done. If the job isn't done as well, then no one isn't as replaceable as you put it. Excellence can't be replaced as easily. Maybe for certain kinds of jobs yes, but for all jobs? No. If that were the case then we'd be inundated with Einsteins, etc. And we aren't.

How many people have the opportunity to be Einstein?

How many people have the right brain, and the right interest, and write the right paper at the right time?

How many are starving in an underdeveloped country and no access to education, for that matter.

Einstein wasn't necessarily a unique genius standing at the pinnacle of an intellectual mountain. He was a beneficiary of survivor bias. We don't know how many other "Einsteins" there have been, or could have been, because we only tell success stories.

Re: Is Google’s AI research about to implode?

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The job might not get done as well, or done in a different way than we'd do it, but it'll still get done. If the job isn't done as well, then no one isn't as replaceable as you put it. Excellence can't be replaced as easily. Maybe for certain kinds of jobs yes, but for all jobs? No. If that were the case then we'd be inundated with Einsteins, etc. And we aren't.

How many people have the opportunity to be Einstein? How many people have the right brain, and the right interest, and write the right paper at the right time? How many are starving in an underdeveloped country and no access to education, for that matter. Einstein wasn't necessarily a unique genius standing at the pinnacle of an intellectual mountain. He was a beneficiary of survivor bias. We don't know how many othe…

  How many people have the opportunity to be Einstein?
Everyone who has access to (public) education, probably. And of those whomever has a relentless will for achievement. And/or is, by nature, curious about stuff. There's a reason why the lines between genius and mental illness get blurred sometimes. Remember John Nash, Jr.?

  How many people have the right brain, and the right interest, and write the right paper at the right time?

  How many are starving in an underdeveloped country and no access to education, for that matter.
I wouldn't know but I'd estimate millions.

  Einstein wasn't necessarily a unique genius standing at the pinnacle of an intellectual mountain.
Whether you like it or not, he was a genius, and unique in his own way (like everyone else is - even you), along with various other well-known peers of his time and lots of other people before them.

Now, obviously, they, as well as any "proper" scientist, are well aware that none of their work would mean anything if they didn't stand on the shoulders of giants. Science is a branching tree of giant people.

  He was a beneficiary of survivor bias. We don't know how many other "Einsteins" there have been, or could have been, because we only tell success stories.
Following your train of thought then no one's achievements - even those who you claim don't have the "right brain," "right interest," don't "write the right paper at the right time," are "starving in an underdeveloped country" and "without access to education" - would mean anything.

So, to get back to the subject: replaceability depends on the kind of job. It may be simpler to replace a fast food worker, but a Richard Feynman? an Albert Einstein? or ? I doubt it. Those people made a difference in their respective fields and no one can take that from them. And I'd say the same if it were someone else from other countries, ethnicities, etc.

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