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I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

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Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#81
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has lived in dictatorships and now lives in the US, I don’t see the point to your (rhetorical?) question at all. I’ve seen firsthand how much more relaxed people become when they don’t need to constantly worry about government informants (I’m from Tunisia). Of course, for the vast majority of people, living in a poor democracy is objectively worse than living in a rich dictatorship.

I can't speak for Tunisia but people in China generally don't have such worries. I'm really trying to compare two relatively stable governments, with one employing centralized censorship and power preservation and one employing decentralized censorship and power preservation. If you throw say a less well off and also oppressive government then it's a different matter.

Well, your statement was quite general :)

My point is that free speech without impact is vastly better than no free speech at all, which is why I don’t see how it even makes sense to ask that question.

I think the key point is that free speech is the basic mechanism the public has to make societal or political changes. If speaking or protesting against the government is a crime, it means the public is lacking the basic mechanism to even propose such changes, let alone make them.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#82
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds a lot like everywhere else, like America. I bet if Americans and Chinese looked, we have more in common with each other than we have with our politicians.

I definitely agree that THE PEOPLE have a lot in common. Almost everyone all over the world just wants to enjoy life.

I have a Chinese coworker -- fairly young. He's an awesome guy, we hit it off very quickly and ended up sharing a lot of interests. One of the things that we settled on early was that, if nothing else, the people of the world can agree on at least one thing: a dislike and distrust of politicians/elite leaders. He wasn't foaming-at-the-mouth angry or anything, but he also wasn't fawning. Fawning over China as a cultural entity, yes, but we were able to have a good number of fairly frank discussions.

Of course, there are still topics that felt totally taboo in such half-personal/half-professional relationships; Hong Kong was a sticking point that we avoided, for instance, and I never would have dreamed of bringing up Tiananmen.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#83

Wow, that sounds disheartening. Thank goodness nothing like that could happen with tech companies in the U.S.A.

It's at least a little different: The Chinese tech companies are echoing and enforcing the party line, aiding and abetting government censorship.

US tech firms were positioning themselves as adversaries of the previous president. We'll see how things play out with the new administration.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In some ways, you're right, but Americans feel most strongly about the freedom of speech when it comes to specifically political speech, and I think the biggest difference is that I, as an American, can choose to say "I think our President of the United States is a fascist and a criminal and he should be arrested for his crimes" and I am in no way worried that the government will track me down and punish me in any ma…

If you speak freely, and it is not powerful enough to cause any consequences, then are you freely speaking at all? Sounds like a great way to make us feel like we have political power and that our speech has power, when in reality the moment our speech can disrupt the establishment it gets clamped down. One big difference here vs China is that the establishment is a bit more distributed. The people in power here are…

Yes? Freedom is speech is not equivalent to complete political equity. Those are separate ideas. You can be in a free, open society and still feel or even be powerless. You can be in a free society and be destitute.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#85
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I definitely agree that THE PEOPLE have a lot in common. Almost everyone all over the world just wants to enjoy life.

I have a Chinese coworker -- fairly young. He's an awesome guy, we hit it off very quickly and ended up sharing a lot of interests. One of the things that we settled on early was that, if nothing else, the people of the world can agree on at least one thing: a dislike and distrust of politicians/elite leaders. He wasn't foaming-at-the-mouth angry or anything, but he also wasn't fawning. Fawning over China as a cultur…

FWIW I'd wager Tiananmen would be less controversial to discuss with him than Hong Kong.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#86
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What point would you define as the beginning of that period that we're supposedly exiting?

The 50s and 60s. It was in full swing by the 70s. If I had to point to one iconic development, it would be the Warren court, and in particular its free speech cases. Those marked the decisive defeat of traditional conservatism, which never again was a powerful force in national politics (unless you count some elements of the Trump coalition) despite occasional lip service and token concessions by Reagan and Bush 43.…

> Though you could say it was the American Revolution that set things off and that it merely took America 250 years to go through the progression that the French Revolution traveled in a mere 5 years

We're still quite a far way off from literally beheading people in the streets (and no, having your Twitter account banned is not even remotely comparable)

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? In general people don't agree with it. However, for a lot of people, it's not actually on their radar. The reality is most people in China are so engrossed in their work and day-to-day life that censorship isn't really actually an issue for…

>Most people in Shenzhen were extremely happy they were in Shenzhen where you could walk around freely instead of "free" Hong Kong Good to know. This means that if the American govt decides to just topple the chinese leadership and take over, submissive Chinese citizens such as yourselves will carry on as usual instead of making trouble.

Personal attacks will get you banned here, and please don't do nationalistic flamewar either.

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Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#88

Wow, that sounds disheartening. Thank goodness nothing like that could happen with tech companies in the U.S.A.

It's at least a little different: The Chinese tech companies are echoing and enforcing the party line, aiding and abetting government censorship. US tech firms were positioning themselves as adversaries of the previous president. We'll see how things play out with the new administration.

But in China there isn't an opposition party.

US tech firms echo and enforce their party line. Their party just happens to not always be in power. The party line Chinese firms echo and enforce comes from a party always in power.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#89
post #4

It would be interesting if someone from China could comment on censorship in China. Is there a fraction of people who agrees with it or is almost it universally disapproved of? Some of these arguments for censorship made in this article sound eerily similar to how we justify censorship in the West. > Our role was to make sure that low-level content moderators could find "harmful and dangerous content" as soon as poss…

I've lived in China for few years. I haven't asked everyone I know, but based on my feeling most people don't like it. That being said, for most Chinese not liking the censorship is kind of like not liking a bad weather. You don't like it, but you accept it and move on. Also based on my experience, most white collars (or at least ones working for international companies) in China have either direct or indirect access…

> Despite having the unblocked access, I've noticed that only very few Chinese are interested in reading foreign news sources or using foreign social media/video platforms.

To be fair, I assume language is also a barrier.

I'm sure not going out of my way to learn Chinese to access Chinese language information sources. I would hardly expect the inverse.

Re: I helped build ByteDance's censorship machine

#90

Sure, and I helped build Palantir's license-plate-reading, immigrant-processing, and drone-targeting machines. Everyone in the Bay Area is fine with that. No one cares. To an average affluent Bay Area engineer, illegal immigrants and people getting blown up half a world away are extremely abstract concerns. The real sources of pain in a Bay Area engineer's life are their inability to sip lattes through a mask and Pla…

Can you expand on that? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

My point is that as software engineers, maaaaany of us are complicit in activity that is morally ambiguous at best, a nuisance on average, and in many cases actively misanthropic.

These are the careers that we have chosen and stuck to because the benefit to us outweighs the harm to society. We are aware of what we're doing and also apathetic about it.

A person complaining about their employer being somewhere between morally indifferent and morally monstrous is a reflection of how incredibly normal this is. Users on this site reading this person's complaints and tut-tutting about how bad it sounds is a reflection of how normal this is. We are all neck-deep in the filth of depravity, willingly and gladly, and we're pontificating the important differences between the filth reaching ear-level or just mouth-level.

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