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Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

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Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> misinformation is combat with MORE discussion, not less! I wholeheartedly agree, but how do you get the other side to listen? The saying goes something like "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

For me, a good start would be to provide evidence that people have had their minds changed because information gets discussed more. E.g. you could demonstrate that the qanon phenomenon became less popular, not more, after it began getting wide media attention. (Unfortunately in this instance the opposite is the case. You have an uphill battle ahead trying to demonstrate your position empirically.)

Q is a really interesting conspiracy theory to bring up. It seems to be at the other end of the "valley" of conspiracy theories - it's almost like the most brazenly unbelievable ones are the ones that somehow gain the most traction.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#362
post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My wife has never been forced to publish anything against her will. That being said, she has disagreed with the editorial decisions of the paper on a number of occasions. This is not at odds with the freedom of association; every single organization is comprised of individuals that don't always agree with one another, but work together to overcome their disagreements. Nowhere has there ever been a guarantee that the…

>> The Chinese room argument says otherwise, and it behooves us as homo sapiens to pay attention. > I'm not sure what this sentence means. I really should have said the implication of the Chinese Room thought experiment - intelligence arises from the constructive behavior of systems, distinct from their mechanical execution. As a (presumed) homo sapien, you should be interested in maintaining the existence of our own…

> You keep asserting that organizations are no different from individuals, while completely ignoring every way I've pointed out how organizations differ from individuals.

I'm asserting that organizations are no different from individuals in the eyes of the law. That's what we're talking about here. The law explicitly protects the freedom to associate, and has no point of view on what the size of a valid association should be.

> you've seemingly made up your mind that desirable small-scale behavior implies desirable large-scale behavior by construction, and ignoring emergent behavior that arises out of scale.

If you go back and read my comments, I've not once made any prescriptions of what is "desirable" or what "should" be; I am strictly making descriptive statements about what currently "is" based on the (very accessible) text of the Constitution and the relevant precedents. You might be correct that large-scale group behavior is somehow undesirable — I don't have an opinion about that and might even agree with you! My point is that it doesn't matter, under the law. A group of 10 is protected the same way a group of 1000 or 10,000,000 are. As it currently stands, if you or I were a part of an organization, neither you nor I have any entitlement over how that organization chooses to officially express itself to the public, unless that organization explicitly empowered us to be able to do so.

If you think that the law should afford us the power to prevent the organization that we are a part of from expressing itself (even if we are in the minority within that organization) or if you think that the law should have carve-outs for different sized groups, that's a separate argument and discussion, and your best course of action there is to amend the US Constitution. We are currently talking about the legal merits of the Federal Legislature intimidating or hypothetically legislating news outlets for the content of their published speech under the status quo of the US Constitution.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#363
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> misinformation is combat with MORE discussion, not less! I wholeheartedly agree, but how do you get the other side to listen? The saying goes something like "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

I have heard this expression rephrased as "Logic is useless against those who reject it". However, in my experience, both sides are logical, they just start from different axioms.

This is my experience as well, but I've also noticed that both sides do not adhere to their base axioms with the same tenacity, and the issues can be a spectrum of adherence to their claimed base beliefs.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#364
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should see how upset people were when you told them you think Trump is a great president. At my last job, the IT admin was so upset that he told me that he will not do any of my incidents. No discussion what so ever.

There's nothing more just than vengeance.

Vengeance is at the core of many of the world's most enduring and moronic conflicts.

http://tailsteak.com/archive.php?num=275

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> misinformation is combat with MORE discussion, not less! I wholeheartedly agree, but how do you get the other side to listen? The saying goes something like "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

It basically doesn’t matter if you get the other side to listen or not. Open and free discussion is out there for those who want to partake. There will always be zealots who choose not to. Censoring opposition in order to be heard more loudly doesn’t work. In an IRL discussion, if you start talking over someone forcing them to stop talking, they’re going to shut down and never listen to anything you have to say.

It matters very much when that other side has the control of your government.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#366
These letters are potentially unconstitutional actions. First amendment rights can be violated by entities other than the government. As pointed out in [1], the government can't induce a company to do something that were government to do it would be illegal:

It is “axiomatic,” the Supreme Court held in Norwood v. Harrison (1973), that the government “may not induce, encourage or promote private persons to accomplish what it is constitutionally forbidden to accomplish.”

[1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/save-the-constitution-from-big-...

Edited for grammar and unnecessary qualifiers.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#367

These letters are potentially unconstitutional actions. First amendment rights can be violated by entities other than the government. As pointed out in [1], the government can't induce a company to do something that were government to do it would be illegal: It is “axiomatic,” the Supreme Court held in Norwood v. Harrison (1973), that the government “may not induce, encourage or promote private persons to accomplish…

> These letters are are bordering on potentially unconstitutional actions.

“bordering on potentially X” is a very misleading way to say “not even arguably X”.

But that's really all it says.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assume good intentions, respect them as individuals, and listen to what they have to say even if you disagree. These are basic tenants of productive debate.

I completely agree with these points - but that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying what do you do when your partner in debate completely ignores all of those things, but has equal say in the outcomes?

Agree to disagree, vote on it, and sometimes loose. Part of being in a democracy is that sometimes you dont get what you want, even when you are sure you are right.

Change can be slow, even for good ideas. If you have faith in humanity and democracy, then you believe good ideas will prevail in the end. There were US abolitionists in 1770 and the civil rights movement ended in 1970.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> misinformation is combat with MORE discussion, not less! I wholeheartedly agree, but how do you get the other side to listen? The saying goes something like "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into."

> How do you get the other side to listen? Pretend you think like them, and make arguments that go against that thinking. Unfortunately, the way the media exists today this never happens, and both sides just attack strawmen in ways that get people to click their headlines and listen to their talking heads. I think it's disingenuous to paint the entire "other side" as unreasonable, but I may be misinterpreting what yo…

> Pretend you think like them, and make arguments that go against that thinking.

Both sides have attacked the trustworthiness of the other. You can't convince someone of something when they think you're lying, or will lie and dissemble to get what you want, and nothing you say can be taken at face value because it's all a con to get some other goal which you claim to not want.

There has been such a concerted effort to so malign the other side that's it's less about clear communication than it is trust. It's got more in common with soldiers inpast wars being encouraged to use terms like krauts, gooks and chinks and those being used as stereotypes to explain the behavior and motivations of the other side than anything else, IMO.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point in question is not whether it is justified or moral single-party rule. It is whether there is a shift towards single-party dominance.

So how does "more people voting" lead to single-party dominance? I only see one party working for that goal, and it isn't the Democratic party.

> I only see one party working for that goal

I mean, that's silly — any political party would love single-party dominance.

Democrats want "more people voting" because their thesis is that most disengaged or non-voters would default Democrat. It's fine if you believe is that "more people voting is good for democracy" but it's not the reason that the Democrats are focused on getting more people ballots.

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