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The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

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Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#221

Post by oblio »

marshmallow_12 wrote: post #172
oblio wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What I conclude is that EV revolution is going to be way more democratized than we realize. That's what we all hope. What tends to happen instead, is that mass market stuff gets monopoliged/oligopolized quickly, because there's just too much money on the table. It just looks "democratic" during the scramble, before the winners are decided. If anything, since EVs are simple, we're going to see > centralization, not…

>Look at what is happening with electronic circuits production. There are what, 4 state of the art producers? TSMC, Samsung, Intel, I'm probably forgetting someone. what of it? We don't have hundreds of airplane makers. Are circuits less efficient/compact then we need them to be? are they overpriced? if not, why should we need more than a handful of manufacturers to do the job? Make cars less necessary, do away with…

That's a funny moment you should mention airplane makers. You know, 737 MAX and all.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#223

Post by renewiltord »

rank0 wrote: post #188
KozmoNau7 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are definite cultural problems to blame for this. A significant number of drivers get angry or offended at any non-car vehicle on "their" roads, because they see them as a threat or an impediment them. There are probably many reasons for this that are not directly related to cars or traffic, but rather to general worldviews, politics, prejudices, aspiration and many others, including seeing bicycles in particul…

People don't like bicyclists because they are observably more dangerous. I think cyclists should have their own paths where possible. But honestly, I think the cyclists are the ones being selfish by disrupting traffic, endangering themselves and others so they can feel "green" or workout or whatever.

Honestly, for third parties reading, this is just utter nonsense. Just go pull SWITRS data from CA and look at it yourself. The last time I looked at it, it was easy to get, and the schema was trivial to analyse in a REPL. Car-bike collisions are overwhelmingly car-driver-at-fault (60-40), and bike-only collisions are rare.

Car-only people identify so strongly with their cars, it's weird. And for some reason they are over-represented on the Internet and argue all this "they are dangerous" nonsense about everyone else. In real life, people commonly accept small inefficiencies in order to perform small acts of kindness for each other.

I drive an SUV, ride my motorcycle, and also bicycle so I've had the fortune of seeing how people interact with me on all these modes of transportation. In San Francisco, most people are kind¹. Here are some anecdotes from the last couple of months:

* Riding in the Richmond to Hawk Hill on my bicycle. At most stop signs, drivers prioritized not forcing cyclists to stop. They do this by approaching a stop sign slower so that they force themselves to not have right-of-way and wave. This is what I do, and I notice it in a lot of others.

* On my motorcycle on a steep hill, I stalled right as the light turned green (engine wasn't anywhere near warm enough for me to have taken the choke off, old bike). No one honked. They were fairly patient.

* Took an exit off the freeway into the city late at night and there was a car wedged on the median. Got off to go help the driver and the three of us got it off. Most people let me in when I signal. It's so much the default that I get mildly offended when someone doesn't. I always let people in.

¹ or at least if they're angry they hide it behind the interface with others, which is enough

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#224

Post by jgilias »

WorldMaker wrote: post #217
jgilias wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I for one believe that the weight/power/size/speed tradeoffs have a lot more to do with: - the need to have place for kids with safety seats in the back - the need to have place for a stroller/a snowboard/a few suitcases/something else in the trunk - the need to use the car to travel at highway speeds and dynamics at least occasionally. I don't see any of this being changed by having an EV. Even as a second car. Espe…

Some of that last point will be based on how you define "occasionally". If it's a once a year trip down a highway (for a vacation, for instance), you can make the intentional trade-off in your planning to use a short term rental or other mode of travel (plane, train) for that once a year trip to save the cost/wear/tear on your "primary" vehicle [1]. Sure, a lot of American cities in particular are not built very conv…

People living in cities that have been (re)built to make them convenient like that, such as Copenhagen or Amsterdam, tend to use bicycles to get around a lot. Going from bicycles to small EVs would be a step back on pretty much any metric imaginable.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#225

Post by baybal2 »

specialist wrote: post #208
baybal2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very hard to make an electric scooter competitive with 150cc which is a mode of transport for probably a billion people. 150cc will be better, and cheaper no matter what you try. I researched the problem extensively when I worked in a number of companies working in the electric scooter space. Cheapest 150cc scooters sell for $500 — that's the price of a battery pack to make a scooter with comparable range to 150…

> I researched the problem extensively... Just curious: Did your efforts identify the sweet spots, given misc costs. Like the "makes sense" price as carbon costs rise and battery cost per amp fall. Factoring weight, distance, speed, recharge times, etc. Why I ask: The most interesting part of the Tesla origin story, to me, is the recognition that laptop battery cost per amp trends would make full-sized EV automobile…

I did.

First is still the same 150cc replacement since the niche is sooo big.

Even if you cost as much as best 150cc on the market, somebody will still buy it for electric convenience, so load it up with cheap fancy features too like cruise control, seat heater etc.

A good 150cc has around 7-8kw of power, and it is the upper limit of a hub motor, and passive cooling, which you should capitalise on.

4.5kwh battery for 50-60km range. 6kwh premium option for around 80km.

Air cooled motor controller for a completely liquid free design.

Screechingly, you can fit into $5000-6000 premium 150cc segment.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#226

Post by Gibbon1 »

MayeulC wrote: post #183
Gibbon1 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Internal combustion engine

See also these commonly used abbreviations: Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PHEV) Battery-Electric Vehicle (BEV)

Good rule I learned from the guy that taught writing for engineers, no matter what spell out acronyms the first time you use them.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#227

Post by WorldMaker »

jgilias wrote: post #224
WorldMaker wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of that last point will be based on how you define "occasionally". If it's a once a year trip down a highway (for a vacation, for instance), you can make the intentional trade-off in your planning to use a short term rental or other mode of travel (plane, train) for that once a year trip to save the cost/wear/tear on your "primary" vehicle [1]. Sure, a lot of American cities in particular are not built very conv…

People living in cities that have been (re)built to make them convenient like that, such as Copenhagen or Amsterdam, tend to use bicycles to get around a lot. Going from bicycles to small EVs would be a step back on pretty much any metric imaginable.

Which is a digression from most of the main discussions here. Though in lieu of that digression other threads around here also point out the usefulness of pedal-assisted e-bikes and how the same trends leading to small EVs are causing an explosion in e-bikes right now as well.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#228

Post by baybal2 »

specialist wrote: post #208
baybal2 wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very hard to make an electric scooter competitive with 150cc which is a mode of transport for probably a billion people. 150cc will be better, and cheaper no matter what you try. I researched the problem extensively when I worked in a number of companies working in the electric scooter space. Cheapest 150cc scooters sell for $500 — that's the price of a battery pack to make a scooter with comparable range to 150…

> I researched the problem extensively... Just curious: Did your efforts identify the sweet spots, given misc costs. Like the "makes sense" price as carbon costs rise and battery cost per amp fall. Factoring weight, distance, speed, recharge times, etc. Why I ask: The most interesting part of the Tesla origin story, to me, is the recognition that laptop battery cost per amp trends would make full-sized EV automobile…

Second is 250cc-300cc equivalent. Basically an Nmax, or Xmax killer.

From that segment, people do expect real speed, and some semblance of a highway rideability.

This definitely needs above 10kw motor, which means liquid cooling, and bye bye hub motor.

Batteries need to be MUCH larger since what's the fun of riding on a highway if you can only drive 60km? Think of up to 10-12kwh options.

Huge batteries also assume longer charging, or higher currents. Since we already went with liquid cooling for motor, liquid cooling a battery pack is the next logical step, and same is for motor controller.

Charger circuit will likely have to be dedicated as you will likely go above 16 cells.

Weight will be an issue. If you go above 180kg (Xmax 300) you will scare off a lot of women buyers.

The dynamic options of the chassis will also become important, so more will go into non-powertrain parts.

Try to squeeze into $8k USD. In Asia, it's quite a luxury segment, so fit it accordingly.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#229

Post by kiliantics »

elicash wrote: post #185
kiliantics wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As you sort of suggest, the real problem is the gigantic cars filling the roads these days. Why do we allow this? You can't even see out of them properly: https://media.tegna-media.com/assets/WTHR/images/9092b67f-2b... This escalation of destructive potential in vehicles, sold to us as increased "safety", is absurd and horrifying.

The picture also shows seven kids! Now, that doesn't mean they're his but lots of kids would still be a pretty good reason for a gigantic car.

People used to transport lots of kids in smaller cars. These new larger SUVs are also more likely to get into accidents so it's probably a bad idea to use one if you want to bring your kids around.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#230

Post by kiliantics »

kleiba wrote: post #202
elric wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's such a red herring. Bigger cars are safer for the people in the bigger car, but way more dangerous for everyone else. Faster cars are more dangerous for everyone. The solution is smaller and slower cars. Not an arms race of whose tank has the best armour.

Geez, what nonsense. Obviously, smaller cars serve only a specific market segment. There will always be a need for bigger vehicles for various reasons - big families, deliveries, etc. I'd say the red herring is your post.

I grew up in a family of 6 and we never had cars as large as the ones on the market today and we were just fine. These larger cars actually have higher rates of getting into accidents so they're less safe for the people inside the car as well as for the people outside them. And just because there will be a need for bigger vehicles for a small set of use cases doesn't mean the majority of people should be driving in them day-to-day. (SUVs now make up about 50% of market share apparently)
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