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Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

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Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#171

Judging what is and is not misinformation must always be in the hands of the people. Never the hands of authorities whether those be government or corporate. Why must fight all censorship. Because once you allow "a thing" to be censored, it becomes possible to censor "any thing". Things in the past which were labeled misinformation and would have been suppressed for even longer (or forever) under current social attit…

It's so far been in the hands of the courts, and like you said, they don't determine what's free speech based on whether something makes us feel bad. Per bhupy, their specific criteria is whether the speech is "directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action". If the misinformation on certain media outlets is considered by the courts to have incited the insurre…

> If the misinformation on certain media outlets is considered by the courts to have incited the insurrection

The courts will not consider it to be incitement. If you think the courts even might, you are woefully deficient in your understanding of case law. A key word in the Brandenburg standard is "imminent", and that makes the Brandenburg bar very high. Taking a crowd of antisemites to a Jewish neighborhood and telling them antisemitic creeds and how all Jews need to die doesn't meet that bar--but pointing to a Jew and saying "there's a Jew, get him" does.

Thinking SCOTUS might take a narrower view of free speech than its established precedent holds is not a winning bet. I'm not aware of a single case in my lifetime where SCOTUS ruled for more government restriction of speech rather than less, and this approach means taking a broader view of free speech than perhaps most people are willing to stomach (e.g., Citizens United).

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#172

To determine misinformation you must first determine information. We would need to setup some government entity to determine true information. We could call it the "Ministry of Truth". Unless that name is already taken? ... the cold wind blows...

If only somehow the government could determine what is true... When somebody is accused of a crime we just have to say "Guilty according to whom?" and let them go, because there's no way to know what's true. Sure the DNA says he murdered 3 children, but what are those scientists really after! If only there were some organized system for appointed people with great track records to somehow listen to both sides of an a…

This is a red herring because the letter doesn't call for the legal system to determine what's true and false, it tries to pressure cable companies to drop cable channels that the ruling party doesn't like.

Regardless, the legal system does in fact make mistakes. We have the legal system because in some cases final decisions have to be made - who to imprison and who not - not because it's a perfect system. The fact that we need a system for a limited purpose doesn't imply that we should expand it's power indefinitely.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#173

"How many of your subscribers tuned in to Fox News, Newsmax, and OANN on U-verse, DirecTV, and AT&T TV for each of the four weeks preceding the November 3, 2020 elections and the January 6, 2021 attacks on the Capitol? Please specify the number of subscribers that tuned in to each channel ." Does this strike anyone else as a nakedly partisan move?

It's political censorship disguised at fact checking. If they were really concerned about "fake news", they would apply the same standards to the other side. Remember how just a couple years ago almost all of the major media outlets were pushing a conspiracy theory about "Russian Collusion"? Yet nobody is talking about shutting ABC, CBS, NBC, or MSNBC down, kicking them off cable, or banning them from the internet.

> It's political censorship disguised at fact checking. If they were really concerned about "fake news", they would apply the same standards to the other side. Remember how just a couple years ago almost all of the major media outlets were pushing a conspiracy theory about "Russian Collusion"? Yet nobody is talking about shutting ABC, CBS, NBC, or MSNBC down, kicking them off cable, or banning them from the internet.

You're misremembering. Russian collusion was an allegation that needed to be investigated because of 1) the actions of Russian intelligence agencies to influence the election in ways advantageous to Trump, and 2) weird things members of the Trump campaign did that were suspicious. However, the major media outlets only reported on that, and it didn't go on to claim that there was actual collusion.

For instance, here's the first page of results from major media outlet search for "Russian collusion" (ending the day before the Mueller report):

https://www.nytimes.com/search?dropmab=true&endDate=20190321...

> BRIEFING Judge Doubles Down on Scrutiny of Roger Stone’s Book

> POLITICS Roger Stone’s New Instagram Post and Book Draw Scrutiny After Gag Order

> POLITICS Trump Lawyer ‘Vehemently’ Denies Russian Collusion

> POLITICS ‘Collusion Delusion’: Trump’s CPAC Speech Mocks Mueller Inquiry

> POLITICS Trump Says There Was ‘No Collusion’ With the Russians

> OPINION The Russians Were Involved. But It Wasn’t About Collusion.

> POLITICS Indictment Details Collusion Between Cyberthief and 2 Russian Spies

> OPINION How Will ‘Collusion’ Play in the Midterms?

> OPINION Can We Please Stop Talking About ‘Collusion’?

> OPINION Oh, Wait. Maybe It Was Collusion.

That last piece sounds like it's the closest to saying there was collusion, lets see what it says:

> What remains to be determined is whether the Russians also attempted to suborn members of the Trump team in an effort to gain their cooperation. This is why the investigation by the special counsel, Robert Mueller, is so important.

That's not pushing a conspiracy theory.

On the other hand, Fox News, OANN, NewsMax, etc. lied to the extent that they're legitimately worried about the conspiracy theories they were pushing costing them a lot of money from defamation lawsuits:

https://www.cnn.com/2020/12/19/business/fox-smartmatic-news-...

https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/05/media/lou-dobbs-fox-show-canc...

https://www.cnn.com/videos/business/2021/02/03/newsmax-mike-...

However, I don't fault you too much for this confusion. There are a lot of liars out there who've found a lot of success "arguing" with false equivalencies to keep their followers loyal to the cause.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If only somehow the government could determine what is true... When somebody is accused of a crime we just have to say "Guilty according to whom?" and let them go, because there's no way to know what's true. Sure the DNA says he murdered 3 children, but what are those scientists really after! If only there were some organized system for appointed people with great track records to somehow listen to both sides of an a…

>Sure the DNA says he murdered 3 children Does it? Enough labs have shown to be unreliable in handling evidence and being able to follow correct procedures. Remember back when the bite marks showed they were the murderer, or the skull shaped showed them to be a killed, or they didn't float so they must've been a witch?

In a way you're agreeing with me. You're pointing out how hard it is to find what's true, and the obvious answer to me seems - better science.

Have the DNA sent to 3 separate labs to test blindly against a control (blind tests are a huge component of the scientific method), require consensus from all 3 labs.

Modern scientific method also was the solution to "phrenology" (skull shape).

At least I assume you're not arguing all scientific evidence in court should be inadmissible?

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#175

Judging what is and is not misinformation must always be in the hands of the people. Never the hands of authorities whether those be government or corporate. Why must fight all censorship. Because once you allow "a thing" to be censored, it becomes possible to censor "any thing". Things in the past which were labeled misinformation and would have been suppressed for even longer (or forever) under current social attit…

Hard disagree. We can censor, for example, child pornography, bomb-building tutorials, and revenge porn. I'm not going to fight against censoring them on the grounds that allowing them to be censored will allow anything else to be censored too.

See, even these descriptions which you presumably think are clear distinctions are not objective categories of information.

Do drawings count? How about deepfakes? Pyrotechnic display textbooks?

You're going to need a judge, and that judge is going to wield power.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#177
While some sources are being chastised for the content they put out, it's equally damaging to negligently not put out content on other stories. Both sides are doing this pick and choose game of politics and bias.

hear about it in the hunter biden case here:https://youtu.be/ZnMMx-i971I?t=2481

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. We can __prosecute__ against those who break the law. We __must not__ censor, because that is the slippery slope; all the more so when it is done without judicial oversight in an adversarial review system.

That is a distinction without a difference. You are talking about the mechanics of censorship.

It isn't. There are two differences.

The first is that prosecutions are retrospective. If something is true and you can't stop anyone from saying it, only punish them after, then people who are willing to sacrifice their freedom for the truth can't be silenced. There is also less incentive to punish them because the cat is already out of the bag, and people are more willing to push back against a prosecution for speaking a truth that they've seen survive an adversarial public debate.

The second is that prosecutions happen in courts bound (in the US) by the First Amendment, and the prosecution fails if the defendant was engaged in protected speech. Facebook or Comcast/MSNBC (note: the same company) deciding what constitutes "misinformation" with no accountability for over-censoring is not that.

Re: Letters from House members to cable providers [pdf]

#180

Judging what is and is not misinformation must always be in the hands of the people. Never the hands of authorities whether those be government or corporate. Why must fight all censorship. Because once you allow "a thing" to be censored, it becomes possible to censor "any thing". Things in the past which were labeled misinformation and would have been suppressed for even longer (or forever) under current social attit…

Hard disagree. We can censor, for example, child pornography, bomb-building tutorials, and revenge porn. I'm not going to fight against censoring them on the grounds that allowing them to be censored will allow anything else to be censored too.

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