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Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

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Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#91

Post by throw1234651234 »

Bakary wrote: post #68
throw1234651234 wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, it's possible, by in my experience, most people exaggerate everything - especially things that can't be verified. The other reason I have a hard time believing this is that I know normal people can't visualize anything. Artists, really good artists, are able to visualize a face with some detail. Most can't visualize a circle and toggle its color, let alone anything complex. To me, that is a strong argument to b…

Are you sure you aren't suffering from aphantasia and extrapolating that to other people?

No, I am not. Or I wouldn't be able to draw from imagination. Most people get a brief, vague glimpse and act like they can hold an image in their mind.

You aren't holding it if you can't draw from it. End of story.

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#92

Post by beermonster »

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #53

But is lucid dreaming restorative? In my experience it's kind of fun but it doesn't really help me feel more rested.

These days when I lucid dream it often wakes me up very soon after I realise I’m lucid dreaming. So, definitely less rested.

When I was a kid I could just live in my dream for hours. Seem to have lost that ability.

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#93

Post by throwaway_kufu »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #51
Kelamir wrote: post #43

AING folks have been doing lucid dreaming for years, their Russian forum at forum.aing.ru has 400k messages, so if you're interested in the topic, there's something you can learn from them. They have a number of attempts to make contacts with each other while lucid dreaming. You can check out the English version for their stuff here: https://obe4u.com

I have practiced lucid dreaming for literally years, and imho anyone who says they get super detailed dreams is full of **. Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. It's all a blurry mess and you wake up if you exert too much control.

> Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes.

isn’t that exactly what the mind (or at least the brains visual cortex) is doing all day long?

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#94

Post by Bakary »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #91
Bakary wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you sure you aren't suffering from aphantasia and extrapolating that to other people?

No, I am not. Or I wouldn't be able to draw from imagination. Most people get a brief, vague glimpse and act like they can hold an image in their mind. You aren't holding it if you can't draw from it. End of story.

>You aren't holding it if you can't draw from it.

That doesn't sound plausible.

In my personal case, I can maintain a clear image but be unable to translate it accurately to paper or to another medium (electronic or not) since it involves skill. The fidelity I am able to attain has improved as my skill has improved, and I can clearly see the frustrating differences between the image in my mind and what I then drew without yet being able to remedy it. If the proposition were correct neither of these things would be possible.

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#95

Post by pengaru »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #51
Kelamir wrote: post #43

AING folks have been doing lucid dreaming for years, their Russian forum at forum.aing.ru has 400k messages, so if you're interested in the topic, there's something you can learn from them. They have a number of attempts to make contacts with each other while lucid dreaming. You can check out the English version for their stuff here: https://obe4u.com

I have practiced lucid dreaming for literally years, and imho anyone who says they get super detailed dreams is full of **. Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. It's all a blurry mess and you wake up if you exert too much control.

According to you, a sample size of one...

Back when I dabbled in extreme sleep deprivation I'd be forced into a sort of wakeful sleep where what I can only describe as "eye movies" would forcibly take over my vision center. They were entirely fabricated, and indistinguishable from normal vision. My eyes would still be open, in some cases I'd still be engaged in a demanding activity like riding a motorcycle (this was insane), but my mind was completely out to lunch and I'd be observing a completely different world than the one reflected on my retinas.

My conventional sleep dreams never had that amount of consciously-accessible fidelity, but I presume some people can access their dreams as well as my sleep deprivation experiences proved for me.

Some people can't access their dreams at all, why wouldn't variety in the other direction occur as well? I think we should assume it's a spectrum across the whole gamut.

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#96

Post by psalminen »

martingoodson wrote: post #67
tyre wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most can't visualize a circle and toggle its color, let alone anything complex. What? I’m doing this right now. I can do it with a white tiger. I can see Barrack Obama in a marching band on Mars. I have a friend who cannot picture anything in their mind, so it’s probably a spectrum. You might be projecting your experience onto others.

'One of the creators of the Firefox internet browser, Blake Ross, realised his experience of visual imagery was vastly different from most people when he read about a man who lost his ability to imagine after surgery. In a Facebook post, Ross said: What do you mean ‘lost’ his ability? […] Shouldn’t we be amazed he ever had that ability? We’ve heard from many people who have experienced a similar epiphany to Ross. The…

Every aspect about the way people think is on a spectrum. There is also the split between those who have an inner monologue in their heads the those who don't. There's also studies showing these two populations astonished that the other exists.

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#97

Post by Enginerrrd »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #51
Kelamir wrote: post #43

AING folks have been doing lucid dreaming for years, their Russian forum at forum.aing.ru has 400k messages, so if you're interested in the topic, there's something you can learn from them. They have a number of attempts to make contacts with each other while lucid dreaming. You can check out the English version for their stuff here: https://obe4u.com

I have practiced lucid dreaming for literally years, and imho anyone who says they get super detailed dreams is full of **. Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. It's all a blurry mess and you wake up if you exert too much control.

FYI, I used to have similar experiences. Until I started deliberately lucid dreaming and learned some "dream stabilization" techniques.

The first time I had a proper, photo-realistic dream with complete awareness that it was a dream it blew my fucking mind in a way that was almost religious. I could feel the sun on my face, and the texture of the sidewalk I was walking on. I couldn't stop looking at plants! It was incredible to see every leaf and twig with the realization that they were being entirely rendered by my brain in real time. TRUST ME, those experiences are completely possible, and the detail a brain can create is nothing short of ASTOUNDING.

Upon reflection, it makes perfect sense. EVERYTHING you conceive of or percieve in your waking life is a lie, essentially a hallucination of sorts. It is a mostly high-level construction and summary made by some part of your brain based on sensory input. It turns out, your brain is perfectly capable of synthesizing the high level construction without the fine-grained sensory input.

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#98

Post by vekker »

breakattn wrote: post #57

Stephen LaBerge made this same discovery in 1987 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_LaBerge They did not do their research.

Everything old is new again...

It goes back to the late 70s with Stephen LaBerge's and Keith Hearne's research, but as far as I know, those experiments were always involving one-way communication.

A few years ago, the author of the awesome blog lucidcode, trained himself to communicate in Morse code with the outside world: https://lsdbase.org/2012/05/11/hello-dream-world/

I also recall someone doing a full-on two-way communication experiment involving eye signals and light flashes a couple years ago, but I don't remember the source.

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#99

Post by Judgmentality »

psalminen wrote: post #96
martingoodson wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'One of the creators of the Firefox internet browser, Blake Ross, realised his experience of visual imagery was vastly different from most people when he read about a man who lost his ability to imagine after surgery. In a Facebook post, Ross said: What do you mean ‘lost’ his ability? […] Shouldn’t we be amazed he ever had that ability? We’ve heard from many people who have experienced a similar epiphany to Ross. The…

Every aspect about the way people think is on a spectrum. There is also the split between those who have an inner monologue in their heads the those who don't. There's also studies showing these two populations astonished that the other exists.

...there are people that don't have a monologue in their heads?

Re: Scientists break through the wall of sleep to the untapped world of dreams

#100

Post by mkmcde »

Enginerrrd wrote: post #97
throw1234651234 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have practiced lucid dreaming for literally years, and imho anyone who says they get super detailed dreams is full of **. Your mind doesn't have enough processing power to render realistic scenes. It's all a blurry mess and you wake up if you exert too much control.

FYI, I used to have similar experiences. Until I started deliberately lucid dreaming and learned some "dream stabilization" techniques. The first time I had a proper, photo-realistic dream with complete awareness that it was a dream it blew my fucking mind in a way that was almost religious. I could feel the sun on my face, and the texture of the sidewalk I was walking on. I couldn't stop looking at plants! It was in…

How did you get to that point? I've been working towards trying for consistent lucid dreams. I'm most successful when I wake up early and go back to sleep for ~1 hour.
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