Live data from Hacker News

Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

news.ycombinator.com

131–140 of 169 posts

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#131
post #107
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Drag required to make lift is only a subset of total drag. A car for example doesn’t need to produce lift, but it still displaces air which causes drag. The same is true of an aircrafts fuselage, which is generally not used to generate lift but still increases total drag. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitic_drag Also, an aircraft is generally designed so that at cruse speed and altitude the wing incidence angle p…

Yes, the range-optimal speed is where the parasitic drag is equal to the lift-induced drag. If you go through the analysis, the air density drops out of the range equation if you assume are operating at the range-optimal speed (which is higher at lower air densities).

> the range-optimal speed is where the parasitic drag is equal to the lift-induced drag

Not quite true -- range-optimal speed is where the sum of those terms is minimal. With some assumptions, this is where the derivative is 0, dDrag/dv = 0, and since derivative is linear, this means: the range-optimal speed is where the (infinitesimal) increase of parasitic drag (with speed) is equal to the decrease of lift-induced drag (in other words, opposite derivatives).

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#132

Have you considered to jettison some of the batteries during and/or after take-off? Probably not just drop them, maybe a controlled glider or similar, plus what are the posibilities for an in the air charge by tether to another plane? Final super radical idea, have some iflatable high chord wings for take off at low speed high drag and lift, then ditch them somehow once at altitude and can do a anouever with stored h…

If the mass fraction of batteries on the plane is bounded by some not too large number (I'd guess at most ~30%?), then your range increase will be less than that. Given the increase in complexity, risk and additional hardware neutralizing those changes, I don't think battery ejection (via gliders or anything else) is viable.

Mid-air refueling (e.g. via drones swapping batteries) would be more plausible, but it still seems like a risky and complex operation -- think of turbulence, weather events, remote flight routes, etc. (but maybe it's possible to get it reliable enough).

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#133
post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One aircraft we looked at required 30-35MW during takeoff and ~10MW during cruise. Do you envision some airframes to include assisted take-off technology? (JATO and the like, even catapults)

A simpler alternative could be to just have an electrified runway. The plane draws power from power rails embedded in a runway, or something like that. So, it doesn't switch to batteries until it's in the air. You could even have a long cable that hangs behind the plane and keeps an electrical connection until you're a few hundred feet up. (I'm picturing it connected to something like a slot-car that travels in an el…

None of the things you mention would have a significant effect on range, and all could be replaced with a nominal increase in runway length. If an aircraft cannot produce sufficient power to take off, it cannot produce sufficient power to climb.... And to be efficient, it must climb as high as possible, ideally to 30k feet or more. You are talking about the first 30 seconds... But it needs to keep it up for 30 minutes.

Take off assists are for ultradshort runways.

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a rule, whenever one feels tempted to say "just do ", it's time to wait and think. Because, if it's "just" about doing something, why isn't it being done already? In this case: let's say it's feasible to retrofit runways to use this system (it probably isn't) and look at a few issues. For instance: "the cable releases from the plane". No system is fail safe. What happens if the cable does NOT release from the plan…

We’ve been launching airplanes with steam catapults for many decades, albeit in an environment where we’re willing to take more risks than to go see Grandma, but many of the catapult concerns are areas where we have decades of experience and hundreds of thousands of successful cat shots.

But the catapult isn't for saving on energy that needs to be carried on the aircraft. It's simply that you can't build engines and propulsion systems on a plane with the desired takeoff weight when you have as short a runway as you do on an aircraft carrier

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#135
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copper is also 60% better in the thermal conductivity properties as well, which is another critical property. Power density in an electric motor is really based on how fast you can remove heat from the motor. I'm involved in sizing industrial servomotors, but even there you have 1s/10s/60s power ratings. I wonder if H3X can post higher power levels for takeoff, assuming it starts cold and the flight plan calls for th…

Yes, thermal conductivity is of the utmost importance at the continuous current densities we are designing for. That being said, typically the effective thermal conductivity of the winding (perpendicular to the axis of current flow) is limited by the insulation (strand and/or turn) and the encapsulation/varnish. As a result, changing the thermal conductivity of the conductors themselves will have much less impact on…

It’s just a weird idea, but cant you use hollow copper winding, and run the coolant liquid trough that?

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#136
Amazing. My view on this is that the combination of electrification and autonomous flight removes most of the cost advantage large airplanes have over small ones.

People seem to obsess over replacing large jets with large electrical planes but forget that the reason those exist at all is fuel economies that you simply don't have with electrical planes. A big jet has a better fuel economy than a small plane per kg of load. Bigger engines run more efficient. That's why private jets are so expensive to fly. A transatlantic flight burns quite a few tens of thousands of dollars worth of fuel. But it's not a problem because the plane is full of hundreds of people that each pay quite a bit of money for the privilege.

The same is not true for electric because the battery mass means large planes are pretty much impossible currently. Smaller planes on the other hand are feasible now and could get to interesting ranges pretty soon with even only modest improvements in technology. The low cost of electricity means that even if there was an advantage, it would matter a lot less. That makes the pilot the most important part of the cost of flying the plane from A to B (i.e. variable cost).

Many small electrical planes without a pilot would be able to transport people for vastly less than a single big jet (autonomous or not). Initially over small distances but with the help of better batteries or fuel cells, long haul flights should be doable as well eventually. The fuel/electricity cost for that would be a lot more modest than e.g. flying a 777 across the Atlantic. There is not much of a benefit over using a large airplane vs using many smaller ones. Even the cost of buying them could be better. E.g. the list price of the Eviation Alice would give you budget for about 30 of those for the price of a 777. That's an unreleased first generation electrical plane using pretty outdated tech (because certification takes that long).

So, I would say focus on small to medium sized planes and mass producing those because that is where the action is going to be short term. Think point to point connections of airports that you currently can't fly to because of noise restrictions. Anything under a 500 miles basically. That's a new market that is currently not economical with conventional planes because of noise and fuel cost.

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#137
post #2

Given that the batteries weigh a lot more than the motors, I would have thought that motor efficiency (which scales battery size) was much more important than motor weight. My back-of-the-envelope is: - Assuming 0.4 kWh/kg for batteries, and they have to run for 4 hours, then the total mass per kW is 10 kg (batteries) and 0.08 kg (motor). - A 1% increase in motor efficiency could eliminate 0.1 kg of batteries, which…

This is an excellent question. For narrow body aircraft we've studied, they require high propulsive power during the takeoff and climb phases, and a fraction of the peak propulsive power during the cruise phase. One aircraft we looked at required 30-35MW during takeoff and ~10MW during cruise. So, thrust power and system level power density (kW/kg) are critical during takeoff/climb and cruise efficiency is important…

But that big max/cruise delta disappears as soon as you ditch the wings and go 'copter, which seem to dominate all use cases where electric is anywhere close to viable.

Where motors excelling in W/g could absolutely shine is the still empty area of hybrid planes that downsize their combustive propulsion to cruise requirements and carry batteries only for those short periods of peak power demand.

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#139
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's really not too accurate. The most efficient aircraft are sailplanes (the high end ones usually have a motor, BTW), and they operate at lower altitudes typically. Lift-to-drag of 70 has been achieved. The SR-71's L/D is probably classified still, but probably around 7 or so. The issue is a certain aircraft has an optimum cruise altitude. If you try to fly fast at low altitude, it'll be horrendously inefficient.…

We are definitely saying the same thing in very different ways. Just using the drag polar approach and neglecting second-order effects (assume negligible dependence on Re, sufficiently subsonic so negligible impact of M, and linear lift coefficient region aka no stall), we get the following (I'm skipping a lot of intermediary steps): Cd = Cd0 + k*Cl^2 -> Cd0 is the parasitic drag coefficient -> k is the lift-induced…

Oh, yes, precisely. That’s one thing about air travel that people don’t really understand. They think fast = inefficient, but as long as you’re supersonic, speed is roughly independent of efficiency. You can have you cake and eat it, too!

This is not really true for any other transportation method. Cars and buses and boats and even trains have an efficient vs speed trade off especially at higher speeds.

And there is an efficiency advantage of speed in that you can get by with just a cramped seat because your trip time is short, a few hours. A similar trip in a conventional train, cruise ship, zeppelin, or sailboat may require bringing along basically a small apartment (or “sleeper car”) which is much heavier and can destroy the efficiency advantage you might have otherwise had. And the same vehicle can be used many more times for the same route if its speed is much greater, which (combined with the lower vehicle weight per person) reduces the effective embodied emissions of the vehicle per passenger mile significantly.

Re: Launch HN: H3X (YC W21) – High power density electric aircraft motors

#140
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, thermal conductivity is of the utmost importance at the continuous current densities we are designing for. That being said, typically the effective thermal conductivity of the winding (perpendicular to the axis of current flow) is limited by the insulation (strand and/or turn) and the encapsulation/varnish. As a result, changing the thermal conductivity of the conductors themselves will have much less impact on…

It’s just a weird idea, but cant you use hollow copper winding, and run the coolant liquid trough that?

LOL, just had exactly the same thought.
Post reply on HN