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The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

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Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#61

Post by blueblisters »

brainless wrote: post #11

This is something I realized recently. I am in India and the number of small manufacturers who are making electric people movers is very high. These are not high speed vehicles, they are below 40 KM/h speed as I see them, but the big shift is that hundreds of small companies around India are producing and maintaining small electric vehicles, mostly locally. The drivers charge them at home at night or during longer lu…

This happened 10 years ago too when there was a flood of manufacturers who were importing and assembling low-powered two-wheeled electric vehicles, but for some reason they never took for whatever reason - lack of range or too expensive etc.

The new generation of small manufacturers assembling electric people movers face different challenges. I talked to one assembler who had no previous experience in this industry and their biggest challenge was getting safety permits from Indian regulators. Which makes sense, honestly.

I think the real challenge is on the demand side - the comparable electric two wheelers are at least twice as expensive as their ICE counterparts, which makes it hard for consumers to justify their purchase, even after a web of state subsidies.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#62

Post by esperent »

repsilat wrote: post #51
OldHand2018 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no hack. Low-speed vehicles are legal in the US https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-speed_vehicle I’ve seen maybe 2 or 3 in my life outside of Florida.

In TFA they made a big point of you not needing any kind of license to drive one in China. I guess that's true of ebikes in the US, but above that point I think is a regulatory line that will never be relaxed. If it has indicators you'll need a license in the US forever, IMO, even if limited to city speeds. I suspect higher interest rates might change the calculus too. If you can get a low-interest, long-duration loa…

> And, to be fair, a major part of why the US has bigger cars is that people can afford them.

What about European countries with similar median wage to the US but where most people choose small cars? I think big cars in the US is partly a cultural thing, and also partly because roads in the US are bigger. Driving a big car in most Asian cities would be a horrible experience, so I expect smaller cars to be more popular.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#64

Post by wongarsu »

justapassenger wrote: post #45
redisman wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic EV design seems to be orders of magnitude simpler than implementing exploding dinosaur fumes to drive a vehicle.

None of those companies builds their own motors and batteries. They get them as kits, same as you can get ICE engines. It’s simpler to integrate, that’s for sure, but not orders of magnitude.

ICE engines need plumbing to fuel tank and exhaust, and they need a transmission. They also need a battery and alternator to power the lights, and either a starter motor or kickstarter to get the motor going.

In comparison an electrical motor is just a motor, battery and charger in the minimal setup

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#65

Post by onion2k »

ggm wrote: post #58
dboreham wrote: post #20

Clive Sinclair was right.

Did you see any of the tiny cars being low slung torpedoes with a safety flag stick up back? Otherwise, no.. Clive was wrong.

Right now we're trying to electrify cars, but replacing cars with something else would probably work better for a lot of journeys. I think Sir Clive was correct about the concept of personal electric vehicles. The form factor of the C5 was nothing more than an implementation detail - with a few iterations it would have been significantly better.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#66

Post by dragonsh »

brainless wrote: post #33
dragonsh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s good and almost all of them assemble the small EV from ready made CKD (completely knocked down) kits from neighbouring country (imported legally or illegally due to policy ban to show as produced in India). The value addition is in terms of making an outer body or assembling the imported battery cells and wheels (comes with inbuilt motor), depending on the capacity. India lacks basic manufacturing capability at…

I am not sure where you get this idea from but India is a huge automobile manufacturing hub, globally speaking. Yes India started very late but there is probably no part that is not manufactured inside the country. I am speaking of less than luxury brands of cars here. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_industry_in_India

> there is probably no part that is not manufactured inside the country

May be before commenting go and look for statistics yourself if India is even considered a player in EV manufacturing market. Most of its EV startups and manufacturers rely on China, Korea and Japan for motors, electrical drive train, battery cells, PCB, elctronics and many core parts. India even imports electrical transformers from China, the most basic equipment for building electrical distribution network. [1]

May be talk to any auto manufacturers even most celebrated one's in India, have supply chain mostly from China. Go and ask Tata for its cars ECU, steering wheel and even steel. Indian mfg mostly are assembly and marketing company. China only recently became a manufacturer in EV and high speed train. It took over 3 decades of continuous improvements and development of close nit supply chain eco-system, India started opening up with an earlier government but with current government focusing on protective policies to enrich billionaires', it might take longer.

[1] https://tradingeconomics.com/india/imports/china/electric-tr....

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#67

Post by filoleg »

esperent wrote: post #62
repsilat wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In TFA they made a big point of you not needing any kind of license to drive one in China. I guess that's true of ebikes in the US, but above that point I think is a regulatory line that will never be relaxed. If it has indicators you'll need a license in the US forever, IMO, even if limited to city speeds. I suspect higher interest rates might change the calculus too. If you can get a low-interest, long-duration loa…

> And, to be fair, a major part of why the US has bigger cars is that people can afford them. What about European countries with similar median wage to the US but where most people choose small cars? I think big cars in the US is partly a cultural thing, and also partly because roads in the US are bigger. Driving a big car in most Asian cities would be a horrible experience, so I expect smaller cars to be more popula…

> What about European countries with similar median wage to the US but where most people choose small cars? I think big cars in the US is partly a cultural thing, and also partly because roads in the US are bigger

While I agree with you overall, I have a small thing that, I feel, you forgot about.

While the median wages in European countries are the same, are they taxed at the same rate as their US counterparts? What about cars themselves, do they cost higher (MSRP+sales tax+fees+etc.)? And what about the cost of ownership (higher gasoline taxes+annual registration fees+etc.)?

Mind you, I don't own the actual information about most of those, those questions I posed weren't rhetorical. However, I have a gut feeling that median wage Europeans are taxed higher on their income than their US counterparts, and I know for a fact that some things when it comes to car ownership in Europe (like gasoline) are indeed noticeably more expensive.

P.S. I am not trying to start a flamewar about which approach to taxation and pricing of goods is preferable, I understand that Europeans might be getting more worth out of their taxes, even if they are being taxed more overall. There are pros/cons to both, but that's not what this conversation is about, so please don't take my comment as trying to take a stand on that debate.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#68

Post by dragonsh »

esperent wrote: post #60
dragonsh wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s good and almost all of them assemble the small EV from ready made CKD (completely knocked down) kits from neighbouring country (imported legally or illegally due to policy ban to show as produced in India). The value addition is in terms of making an outer body or assembling the imported battery cells and wheels (comes with inbuilt motor), depending on the capacity. India lacks basic manufacturing capability at…

> is still a decade or two behind major players in this industry Not likely. India produces a huge array of high tech goods like iPhones, vaccines, pharma products and so on. I doubt they can do all that yet somehow be two decades behind when it comes to EV parts.

> goods like iPhones, vaccines, pharma products

May be look into more details of it's supply chain and you will notice all of these completely depend on China, Korea, Japan and Taiwan imports. Also most of them are low end production. Pharma is a bright spot in India given the patent policies promulgated in India during earlier government resulting in innovation in formulations, but here also India depends heavily on API (Active product ingredient) imports from China.

As I mentioned China only recently became better in last 10 years after 3 decades of continuous assembly and production improvements, India did well under earlier government, but as mentioned in earlier comment protectionist policies of current government whose policies benefit the rich in India, will slow down that process.

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#69

Post by brainless »

blueblisters wrote: post #61
brainless wrote: post #11

This is something I realized recently. I am in India and the number of small manufacturers who are making electric people movers is very high. These are not high speed vehicles, they are below 40 KM/h speed as I see them, but the big shift is that hundreds of small companies around India are producing and maintaining small electric vehicles, mostly locally. The drivers charge them at home at night or during longer lu…

This happened 10 years ago too when there was a flood of manufacturers who were importing and assembling low-powered two-wheeled electric vehicles, but for some reason they never took for whatever reason - lack of range or too expensive etc. The new generation of small manufacturers assembling electric people movers face different challenges. I talked to one assembler who had no previous experience in this industry a…

This a good point. If you ask me, I think there is a difference between the product and the market demands. 10 years back my friend had purchased an e-bike. But India is filled with ICE bikes that have decent city performance and lower prices. So an e-bike is just a novelty.

While Rickshaws and other people movers do not have many cheap + motorized alternatives (ICE or EV). They also run for 100s of Kms per day and the cost saving from going electric is significant. No one will care too much if the vehicle is not "racing" at 80 Km/h. Doing just 40 Km/h is good enough.

Thus the same electric battery and motor found a much better market I would say. And I have been keenly watching the growth of these machines. First I say foot Rickshaws being retrofitted with motor about 8 years back, early prototypes from market demand.

Now there are hundreds of manufacturers across multiple cities, 1st, 2nd and 3rd tier including. There are even big brands like Mahindra, Bajaj, Exide in the e-Rickshaw space. I witness this across West Bengal and Sikkim as I drive (with my ICE car) the odd 700 Kms stretch.

Product - Market fit may I say?

Re: The road to electric is filled with tiny cars

#70

Post by jillesvangurp »

justapassenger wrote: post #45
redisman wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The basic EV design seems to be orders of magnitude simpler than implementing exploding dinosaur fumes to drive a vehicle.

None of those companies builds their own motors and batteries. They get them as kits, same as you can get ICE engines. It’s simpler to integrate, that’s for sure, but not orders of magnitude.

Elektrek has been running a series of amusing articles lately where they review some outrageously cheap vehicles for sale on Alibaba. Think mini jeeps, SUVs, pickup trucks, go carts, etc. selling for something like 1500$. Some of these look like a lot of fun. None of those are street legal of course but they are dirt cheap. That's kind of the point. All you need is some cheap batteries and an electric motor. Most of these vehicles even use lead acid batteries (cheaper). It's not a high tech business and mass production is pretty straightforward.

India and China have several EVs targeted at their domestic market priced around 5000$ selling in rather large volumes. Nothing world shocking in terms of performance or range but they are basically very nice city cars. Mass producing small vehicles with off the shelf cheap batteries and electro motors is going to be vastly simpler than producing a lot of fragile ICE technology in need of frequent servicing, spare parts, etc. Basically, take the engine out of any cheap washing machine (around 1500kw), add some basic mechanics for wheels, steering, brakes and a battery and you have a nice vehicle. That's pretty much all the technology you need. A handy mechanic could probably put together a nice car from parts like that for next to nothing.

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