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Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

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Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#61

Post by exabrial »

indymike wrote: post #25
exabrial wrote: post #4

> Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists I could see this being true for road bikers... but any XCO, CXO, or Enduro rider depends heavily on training for: * Finding efficient body position for climbing * Weight shifting/wheel unloading while crossing features * Discovery efficiency gains in pedal cadence for terrain, slope, camber I did a cross country race last July. I started mountain biking in Mar…

Even for road riders, there is a huge difference between a stationary bike and a road bike. The changes aren't as pronounced xco, but your ability to hold a line, adjust cadence for wind and slope, and position your body to deal with turns, road conditions (never hit a pot hole with a stationary bike).

Ycombinator 2022 idea: Peleton that simulates potholes and throws you off randomly

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#62

Post by nradov »

dahart wrote: post #59
DenisM wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I often observe that I am he slowest climber on the mountain, but I do not think I am the least fit. There's a good chance it's the technique.

FWIW, best climbing seasons I've ever had were: - Once early in the season I tried letting a very fit fixie rider pace me up a canyon road until we literally couldn't pedal anymore due to leg muscle exhaustion. The fixie part is important because I had to stay in a much higher gear than I would have otherwise, and stand up and fight just to stay with him on the steep sections. We both collapsed and were near puking,…

It's unlikely that a single maximum effort workout increased your fitness much. I suspect that the psychological aspect was more important. You proved to yourself that you could push harder than you believed before. Most endurance athletes lack the mental fortitude to reach their psychological limits.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#63

Post by RHSman2 »

dkarl wrote: post #29
theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

It's interesting because there is a widespread belief (questioned by many, but also still held by many) that pedal stroke at a fixed cadence can be made more efficient by directing the force in more of a circle instead of just pushing down on each side as a beginner does. As you direct the force in a more circular manner, you are supposed to get more efficient. Being clipped in is supposed to allow you to complete th…

Sam Hill. End of discussion

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#64

Post by RHSman2 »

johnchase wrote: post #26
ak217 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the problem is that cyclists get more efficient over time on their bike and on the kind of course they are familiar with. In this study, they didn't even have clip-in pedals: "Because not all of the runners were familiar with cycling shoes, all participants cycled in their own running shoes on flat pedals without toe clips or straps." On a constant-speed training bike without clip-in pedals, a road cyclist wi…

Although I use clipless pedals on both my road and mountain bikes, most of the research I've seen recently suggests that clipless do not provide any efficiency gain. This video provides links to numerous peer reviewed articles on the topic https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KUEaN9FKGLE . Of course I'm sure there is research that would suggest otherwise, and I would be interested in seeing counter arguments.

As a flat pedal rider (and also clips) and someone who has trained fairly extensively in pedaling form here is my 2c. The form of the stroke is to increase the length of the downstroke. So making power transfer happen as early as possible and to maintain it as much as possible at the base. This translates into pushing forward and then down at the beginning and down and back at the end.

This efficiency simply means getting a longer ‘glide’

Its very, very telling when climbing and also trying to attack as when applying extra good form will eek out benefits.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#65

Post by dahart »

nradov wrote: post #62
dahart wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, best climbing seasons I've ever had were: - Once early in the season I tried letting a very fit fixie rider pace me up a canyon road until we literally couldn't pedal anymore due to leg muscle exhaustion. The fixie part is important because I had to stay in a much higher gear than I would have otherwise, and stand up and fight just to stay with him on the steep sections. We both collapsed and were near puking,…

It's unlikely that a single maximum effort workout increased your fitness much. I suspect that the psychological aspect was more important. You proved to yourself that you could push harder than you believed before. Most endurance athletes lack the mental fortitude to reach their psychological limits.

You could be right, and I understand why you’d jump to that conclusion, but I don’t think that’s what happened, and here’s why. The effect didn’t last all season nor give me any boost the next one. When I slowed down my frequency of rides later in the fall, I felt my performance decline. It made climbing noticeably easier right from the start of a ride, before I felt winded or tired or like I was having to push through anything. Before this happened, I had already done a lot to prove to myself what I can and can’t do, I’ve had other times I’ve pushed myself to the limit. I don’t think this really was a single event, I think it was a boost in the middle of a bunch of rides. It was the back-to-back rides in the context of my lets-get-going early season riding, though I don’t remember exactly how often I was going. At the time I expected this ride was going to make me sore for a while and tired for a few days, like what usually happens after an extra long ride. I was really surprised when it didn’t do that.

BTW, it might be important that the sprint to exhaustion up the canyon was relatively short; it was 5 miles averaging medium steep, with spots up to 12% grade. I usually ride it in granny gear, “speed 1” on a 27-speed bike, smallest chain ring, largest on the sprocket. To follow the fixie I had to stay in speed 14 (middle chain ring, middle of the sprocket.)

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#66

Post by DenisM »

dahart wrote: post #65
nradov wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's unlikely that a single maximum effort workout increased your fitness much. I suspect that the psychological aspect was more important. You proved to yourself that you could push harder than you believed before. Most endurance athletes lack the mental fortitude to reach their psychological limits.

You could be right, and I understand why you’d jump to that conclusion, but I don’t think that’s what happened, and here’s why. The effect didn’t last all season nor give me any boost the next one. When I slowed down my frequency of rides later in the fall, I felt my performance decline. It made climbing noticeably easier right from the start of a ride, before I felt winded or tired or like I was having to push throu…

This experiment very vaguely reminds me of some methods people use pump up the level of the red blood cells... I might be mixing it up with something, but it's a curious thought.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#67

Post by DenisM »

nradov wrote: post #58
DenisM wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t have a power meter, but for the purpose of pacing I might get away with just the hr? I’ve always been bad with pacing myself, so that looks to be the lowest hanging fruit.

If you have the means and are serious about improving then I highly recommend buying a power meter. I have Favero Assioma pedals which are about the cheapest option for dual sided power and work well. After I've been riding for a while I tend to slack off and fool myself into thinking that I'm working harder than I really am. The power meter keeps me honest. But without a power meter you can certainly pace yourself b…

Correct me if I'm wrong...

So if I have a power meter I have instant feedback on the power level, and if I know my target power level I can work up to it without overshooting.

HR, unlike power, is a lagging indicator so I am likely to overshoot, especially if I am poor at pacing to begin with.

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