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Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

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Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only because the wealthy benefit from depreciating currency. It doesn’t have to be this way, and it is this way because of policy that is designed to benefit the ultra-wealthy. Do they? Generally inflation benefits debtors and not lenders, because debts are denominated in dollars in the year of issue, and repaid in future dollars, which are worth 2% less per year. Overwhelmingly poor and middle class folks are debt…

> Do they? Generally inflation benefits debtors and not lenders, because debts are denominated in dollars in the year of issue, and repaid in future dollars, which are worth 2% less per year. Yes, exactly. This allows wealthy people to borrow money and pay it back with less value. > Overwhelmingly poor and middle class folks are debtors (think mortgages). Poor people often don’t have access to these extremely low int…

You've stated a bunch of stuff as fact without sources.

> Yes, exactly. This allows wealthy people to borrow money and pay it back with less value.

It lets everyone do so, and as a fraction of net worth, the poor are way disproportionately exposed, and hence benefit. A billionaire with $1B in net worth isn't leveraged to 10B in real estate. Someone worth $10K may easily have $100K in mortgage debt, however.

Why do you say people who have both debt and assets benefit more than those who have just debts? They strictly dont because those assets have to outperform inflation. Debts do not.

> Poor people often don’t have access to these extremely low interest rates because of structural inequalities and credit requirements (and exceptions tend to leave them worse off as well, see the subprime fiasco). Meanwhile the cheap credit bids up the prices of those assets, benefitting the people who have them (wealthy) as opposed to the people buying them (upwardly mobile or aspirational).

That's irrelevant - that is to say, a separate problem - because inflation affects everyone regardless of interest rate equally. Interest rates are set based on likelihood of default.

> Not in aggregate, because the cost of a house increases as people bid for houses with the cheap credit.

Yes, in aggregate, no the cost of houses hasn't increased on an inflation adjusted dollars per square foot basis since the 1970s [1]. Where it has increased on a unit basis it's due to zoning regulation and not inflation.

> Right, and at the end of the day those units represent less value because of the actions of the central bank. Furthermore those actions were intended to have that exact effect. So how are you claiming that business owners are supposed to work in opposition to central bank policy? Clearly if the central bank wants wages to decrease in real terms, and business owners increase them nominally to make them neutral in real terms, this frustrates central bank policy and they will logically just print more money.

No, this is a fundamental misunderstanding. All businesses see their expenses and revenues rise with inflation. If they choose not to adjust their salaries commensurately, they've made a conscious decision to reduce pay a fraction of income.

> The problem is the distorting effect of low interest rates means that what is productive in terms of nominal r.o.i. is not what is productive in real terms, but the market distortions are so pervasive and persistent that people have to chase the nominal returns. This is incredibly destructive to value, society, and community.

[citation needed]

[1] https://fee.org/articles/new-homes-today-have-twice-the-squa...

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi yes I know quite a bit about sticky wages and inflation. What's your point.

> What's your point. Should be obvious from the discussion, especially for someone who “knows quite a bit” about the subject. > Hi yes I know quite a bit about sticky wages and inflation. Then why did you ask me for a source for a statement that is well understood among anyone who has studied the subject? Krugman’s statements to this effect are so well-known as to have been written about in other publications. Back t…

You are purposefully ignoring the normal explanation, which is this: because wages are sticky, firms that need to cut costs in a recession are more likely to lay off people than they are to give pay cuts. Inflation helps to weaken that rigidity so that job losses are not as large. Maybe you know that.

You claim that central banks depreciate the currency because they "think wages among the working class are too high." But rhetorically, you are doing more than just referring to the explanation I gave above. You are implying that central banks "think" working class wages are too high, and want to lower them to hurt working class people.

Which is the opposite of the standard explanation - the purpose of inflation in that instance is to implicitly reduce the downward rigidity of wages so that employment does not contract as much in a downturn.

Presumably you, champion of the working class, would rather more people be unemployed?

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#53
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is tricky, but they try to apply what are called "hedonic adjustments." [1] If a new iPhone comes out that is way better than last year's iPhone, but it is the same price, then that's deflation! You got more stuff for the same price. Or even if your new plasma TV is more expensive than the old CRT, how do you compare them to decide whether the price level has increased or decreased while attempting to hold "qualit…

Progress is different from deflation. Hedonic adjustments is a trick to steal the benefits of progress from workers.

yes, comrade, you have nothing to lose but your chains

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Source this claim. Asset price inflation vs depreciation of debt in real terms. Wealthy people hold assets that are valued in currency. Depreciating currency causes those assets to go up in nominal terms, and additionally depreciating currency causes a flight to assets. Wealthy people (by definition) have more assets than non-wealthy people, hence this flight from currency to assets bids up the prices of assets. >…

> Depreciating currency causes those assets to go up in nominal terms That does not increase the real value of those assets, and it does not have any distributional consequences. > Thats a theory-laden and motivated explanation You could go read like, any of the vast literature on the great depression, the things that caused it and the things that made it worse. But you'd rather expose your ignorance on the Internet…

> That does not increase the real value of those assets,

Exactly correct. It decreases the value of the money use to pay for them, resulting in a higher nominal price and fewer people in society who are able to afford them, resulting in less access to capital for the majority of society.

> and it does not have any distributional consequences.

False. When assets go up relative to currency, fewer buyers can compete for those assets, leading to the wealthy owning more and the poor getting poorer.

> But you'd rather expose your ignorance on the Internet for us to see.

I’m quite sure I’ve acquitted myself satisfactorily in this discussion, if you feel the same about yourself, perhaps you’re the one who needs to peruse the literature.

> I happen to know a lot about central banking, actually. You might be pulling a Dunning-Kruger on this one.

Then how could you have been ignorant of Krugman’s statements to the effect that inflation was necessary because workers’ make too much money? Did you know he had said that? If so, why ask me for a source? If not, how much do you really know about central banks? Especially if you think that the words of several economists are evidence of some conspiracy?

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only because the wealthy benefit from depreciating currency. Net debtors benefit from a depreciating currency, in first order effects. Beyond first order effects, a currency with gradual depreciation but low volatility benefits everyone. As everyone includes the rich, it is true that they benefit, but not especially true. > the units depreciated because the oligarchs want workers’ wages to go down. The alternative…

> As everyone includes the rich, it is true that they benefit, but not especially true. Asst holders benefit disproportionately, as do debtors. The people who benefit most have both assets and debt. These are wealthy people. > The alternative is not “employment at the same wages” when demand drops, it's “production cuts and unemployment, resulting in larger second order demand drop, resulting in more production cuts…

> people who benefit most have both assets and debt. These are wealthy people

Generally you have to have more assets than debt to be considered "wealthy." This is why the word "net" is important in the parent comment. And you are completely ignoring the second-order effects, which is that an economy with low, stable inflation is good for everyone. And if you are going to quibble "why is low, stable inflation good for everyone," then look at the deflationary spirals of the great depression (or any pre-1900 crash) and any hyperinflationary economy of your choosing.

> If demand decreases then production should decrease

Okay Chairman, have it your way. COVID hits, demand plummets, we do nothing to try to keep people in jobs or keep the financial system from collapsing. Less production is indicated!

> buggy whips

This is a total red herring and you know it. No one is talking about counter-cyclical monetary policy and implying it is being used to keep anachronistic firms in business.

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only because the wealthy benefit from depreciating currency. Net debtors benefit from a depreciating currency, in first order effects. Beyond first order effects, a currency with gradual depreciation but low volatility benefits everyone. As everyone includes the rich, it is true that they benefit, but not especially true. > the units depreciated because the oligarchs want workers’ wages to go down. The alternative…

> As everyone includes the rich, it is true that they benefit, but not especially true. Asst holders benefit disproportionately, as do debtors. The people who benefit most have both assets and debt. These are wealthy people. > The alternative is not “employment at the same wages” when demand drops, it's “production cuts and unemployment, resulting in larger second order demand drop, resulting in more production cuts…

> printing money so that the buggy whip makers didn’t notice that there was less demand for their product would have been a disservice

lol, printing money wouldn't have changed anything there. If they made a -5% real return with no printing, and there's a 2% inflation rate, they'd have made a -3% notional return, or, and I believe this is true, a -5% real return. Unless it was handed directly to them, in which case we call this a subsidy not inflation.

You keep conflating units with what they represent. It might make your headache dissipate if you think of dollars as "vintage" year in which they were issued. A 2020 dollar is not the same as 2021 dollar, even though they're convertible 1:1.

Just as a 2006 vintage Krug isn't the same as a 2010 vintage Krug, a 2006 vintage dollar isn't the same as a 2010 vintage dollar.

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#57

The third great truth in this list is "an increase in the money supply leads to inflation, except when it doesn't" which is hard to argue with. Clearly a field where Nobel prizes should be awarded.

To be fair it's not a real Nobel prize. It's paid for by a bank and it was first issued in 1968. One of Nobel's descendants is on record speculating that Nobel would never have agreed to the award. It's very much about public relations for the field of economics. The field's effect on the world has been to undermine democratic governments through the establishment of treaties that people never voted for and organizations comprised of people who were never elected. Governments merely act as middle managers to the "market" and their role is to keep their people within the constraints of these supposed universal truths. The Nobel Memorial Prize in Economics Science is a way for the field to convey prestige, expertise, and authority.

My personal take is that the field is stuck in an existential local minima and are self-conscious about it: similar to how astronomy was stuck on the model of concentric spheres. I think everybody who practices the field is unconsciously aware of it too which is why they lean on hand-waving charts and opaque math that anybody in a harder science would instinctively call bullshit on. How psychology got to be the poster boy for the replication crisis in the social sciences and not economics is baffling given the scope and depth of influence the field has had on the world.

But don't take my word for it... https://academic.oup.com/ej/article-abstract/127/605/F236/50...

  We investigate two critical dimensions of the credibility of empirical economics research: statistical power and bias. We survey 159 empirical economics literatures that draw upon 64,076 estimates of economic parameters reported in more than 6,700 empirical studies. Half of the research areas have nearly 90% of their results under‐powered. The median statistical power is 18%, or less. A simple weighted average of those reported results that are adequately powered (power ≥ 80%) reveals that nearly 80% of the reported effects in these empirical economics literatures are exaggerated; typically, by a factor of two and with one‐third inflated by a factor of four or more.

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depreciating currency causes those assets to go up in nominal terms That does not increase the real value of those assets, and it does not have any distributional consequences. > Thats a theory-laden and motivated explanation You could go read like, any of the vast literature on the great depression, the things that caused it and the things that made it worse. But you'd rather expose your ignorance on the Internet…

> That does not increase the real value of those assets, Exactly correct. It decreases the value of the money use to pay for them, resulting in a higher nominal price and fewer people in society who are able to afford them, resulting in less access to capital for the majority of society. > and it does not have any distributional consequences. False. When assets go up relative to currency, fewer buyers can compete for…

"Low, stable inflation increases inequality" is not a statement that you could find much agreement on from economists.

Also, Krugman is just a pop-econ writer at this point. He is not a big deal in the economics profession. Yes, I am sure he understands how inflation and sticky wages interact. I am not so convinced that you understand it. Just going to repost my other comment for you to puzzle over:

"You are purposefully ignoring the normal explanation, which is this: because wages are sticky, firms that need to cut costs in a recession are more likely to lay off people than they are to give pay cuts. Inflation helps to weaken that rigidity so that job losses are not as large. Maybe you know that.

You claim that central banks depreciate the currency because they "think wages among the working class are too high." But rhetorically, you are doing more than just referring to the explanation I gave above. You are implying that central banks "think" working class wages are too high, and want to lower them to hurt working class people.

Which is the opposite of the standard explanation - the purpose of inflation in that instance is to implicitly reduce the downward rigidity of wages so that employment does not contract as much in a downturn.

Presumably you, champion of the working class, would rather more people be unemployed?"

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Depreciating currency causes those assets to go up in nominal terms That does not increase the real value of those assets, and it does not have any distributional consequences. > Thats a theory-laden and motivated explanation You could go read like, any of the vast literature on the great depression, the things that caused it and the things that made it worse. But you'd rather expose your ignorance on the Internet…

> That does not increase the real value of those assets, Exactly correct. It decreases the value of the money use to pay for them, resulting in a higher nominal price and fewer people in society who are able to afford them, resulting in less access to capital for the majority of society. > and it does not have any distributional consequences. False. When assets go up relative to currency, fewer buyers can compete for…

> When assets go up relative to currency, fewer buyers can compete for those assets, leading to the wealthy owning more and the poor getting poorer.

Boy are you going to freak out when you learn about stock splits and fractional share investing.

Re: Four Basic Truths of Macroeconomics

#60
post #7

"I also think measures of price inflation are almost useless over the long run, because a person today consumes a very different bundle of goods than one in, say, 1950." I agree with this wholeheartedly. How do we put a value on the fact that, for the cost of no more than a day's labor, most in the US can have a handheld device with access to nearly the sum total of the world's knowledge and entertainment? No one, at…

Sure you can have the entire worlds information and entertainment at your fingertips with a $50 smartphone, but if you can't afford to have a roof over your head I'd argue the smartphone is irrelevant. I don't think we should be including basic necessities alongside improvements in entertainment in the same statistic, because it will just hide problems.

> I'd argue the smartphone is irrelevant.

Access to information helps you obtain and maintain a roof over your head.

> I don't think we should be including basic necessities alongside improvements in entertainment in the same statistic, because it will just hide problems.

Agreed.

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