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Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

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Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#91

> IBM Canada has won $1.5M contract to develop new platform for IRCC This will buy what? A team of 4 interns and new grads for 6 months. At the end they'll have a slide deck with too much wordart in ith containing some half-baked ideas, and a few lines of code that don't do anything useful at all and are further from production readiness than starting from scratch.

I wish I was being facetious, but I really don't think I am. IBM hired extensively from my university, I know people who worked there or adjacent to IBM in industry. They hired the bottom of the cohort (computer science/software engineering) at university and didn't hire anyone who could code. They emphasised communication over technical ability (fine, ok), but their style of communication is business buzzwords in sl…

Which University?

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I was being facetious, but I really don't think I am. IBM hired extensively from my university, I know people who worked there or adjacent to IBM in industry. They hired the bottom of the cohort (computer science/software engineering) at university and didn't hire anyone who could code. They emphasised communication over technical ability (fine, ok), but their style of communication is business buzzwords in sl…

Which University?

University of Southampton/ECS, in the UK. It's understandable as IBM have a large campus about 30 minutes away in Hursley near Winchester. I know 2 people who interned there and whos fathers also worked there, 3 who were hired (plus more from my course).

They would run tours for undergrad CS students where we'd get on a coach to Hursley, tour around some flashy mainframes behind big windows, have a talk from someone senior, and then hear about their hiring/internship processes.

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#93
post #76
post #2

In the UK, you can renew your passport online too. I don't really see the risks: they check that your picture matches the old one and you still have to send your old passport for them to issue you the new one..

The part that I find extraordinary is the authentication process for the first UK passport (like after acquiring a citizenship). They don't have an old photo to compare to, they won't look at a foreign ID either. So the authentication process consists in asking me a series of personal questions (that I know they don't know the answer to because I never gave it to them at any point in the process) and look at me in th…

Welcome to the world where your government does not actually have a proper, audited, secure and centralized database of all its citizens. Even third-world countries have it better.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006#Object...

Reasons for disbanding it:

1. Costs

2. "Effectiveness"

3. "Racism"

4. "Privacy Concerns"

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#94
post #38

As a Canadian, I will provide some context around our application for passport process. I went through it a year ago (got my passport 2 days before lockdown), so it's still fresh in my head. To get a passport, you have to go to the post office, get the paper forms (and a spare or two in case you mess up), and fill them out. They need info about where you were born, the doctor who delivered you, your current address a…

[deleted]

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valid here means, the app tries to determine if you did any of the things the rules tell you not to do, like, wearing sunglasses, or using the photo of you with your best friend, or taking a full body photo when they want a face. Later a human will check, and also compare the photo to your last one. Maybe you dyed your hair blond... and grew a different moustache... But how did your missing eye grow back? And why is…

Okay. Does the UK not have the requirement of carrying your ID at all times? Or does everyone have multiple forms?

The UK doesn't have a requirement for anyone to carry ID. I've never carried ID.

Most young people will carry photo ID because it's needed to get into a night club, to buy booze and so on. There are policies like "Check 25" enforced in some places which tell staff they ought to refuse to serve people who seem under-25 unless they can prove they're legal to drink (18 in the UK) but (a) I don't drink and (b) I haven't looked young enough for many years now. For this purpose they can use a driving license if they have one, and there are several other acceptable forms of photo ID including some non-government ID.

If you're driving a motor vehicle police can require you to provide proof that you (and thus you'll need ID) are entitled to be driving this vehicle but it's not instant, so if it happened to me I'd put a note in my diary to take my driving license to the police when it's convenient.

Historically German occupied countries in the war had mandatory ID and so there's an association in British minds (largely false) between winning WWII and not needing to carry ID. Government has tried various strategies to try to change this but they haven't been successful.

Certain non-citizens have to physically attend somewhere at intervals so that government can keep track of them, a Russian colleague of mine would sometimes be late because she'd spend the morning waiting for her local police to confirm that yup, she was still here, still had a visa authorising her to work here, hadn't gone anywhere else. But since citizens do not carry ID the non-citizens don't need ID the rest of the time anyway although I expect many do carry some out of habit.

Many older British people won't own any photo ID. If you can't or don't drive, and never travel abroad you'd have no practical use for it. I suspect my grandmother (who hadn't driven since WWII) didn't have any ID more recent than a war-era government ID with no photograph.

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which University?

University of Southampton/ECS, in the UK. It's understandable as IBM have a large campus about 30 minutes away in Hursley near Winchester. I know 2 people who interned there and whos fathers also worked there, 3 who were hired (plus more from my course). They would run tours for undergrad CS students where we'd get on a coach to Hursley, tour around some flashy mainframes behind big windows, have a talk from someone…

And there's a number of students who graduate from there without being able to code? Having completed an Computer/Software Engineering degree?

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that history has proven the plenty of crime organizations can fake those really well and pass undetected and maybe you missed it, but the authenticity of your passport or any ID document is proven and validated by the secure cryptographic element in the chip within it, not the fancy features in the plastic/paper of the document, that's why chipped passports are now the norm. In any case, the forging scales m…

>In reality, it is more difficult to steal, copy and re-sell a physical passport than a cryptographic key. Just, how? A pickpocket can steal your passport and anyone, even a police officer on the street could have a hard time figuring out if it's actually you or not if your photo looks remotely like the thief. How is it easier to steal passport crypto keys (not the passport number) from a secure government database t…

> Just, how? A pickpocket can steal your passport and anyone, even a police officer on the street could have a hard time figuring out if it's actually you or not if your photo looks remotely like the thief.

A pickpocket needs to come close enough and risk being caught. It does not scale very much. Falsifying them, whilst not impossible, is also risky and also does not scale. Particularly if the thief needs to look like the person on the photograph.

> How is it easier to steal passport crypto keys (not the passport number) from a secure government database than someone's passport off the street?

That is not the problem (although it is a problem: secure government systems are breached with some unfortunate regularity these days). But for it to be practical, people need to have the keys with them, i.e. on their phones or computers, where protection is much harder to guarantee. Putting them in an air gapped unique device is much better, whether it is something like a Yubi Key, a chip in a passport, or a chip card.

> Also, the authorities can cancel your stolen passport, but the pickpocket will still own it physically and can use it to enter places like nightclubs or worse (other than airports and hard borders, nobody checks the passport electronically vs the government database, they all just glance at it and call it a day).

I don't think anyone seriously cares about night clubs. Most of them accept non-chipped drivers licenses or old fashioned paper ID cards anyway, which is practically no security at all. The point is that the hurdle is high enough to avoid teenagers going in.

> I have the feeling you have no idea how secure passport crypto chips and NFC chips are and you assume all passport crypto keys are some databases sitting randomly on the internet.

Which random smartphone maker would you trust for this? Do you trust all the links in the chain? Something does not need to be "sitting randomly on the Internet" to be breached.

Besides, I am not sure what you assume about my assumptions. Cryptography is fine. Cryptography on everybody's phone for this application is a terrible idea. Your passport does not need to be on an Internet-facing device.

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#98
post #38

As a Canadian, I will provide some context around our application for passport process. I went through it a year ago (got my passport 2 days before lockdown), so it's still fresh in my head. To get a passport, you have to go to the post office, get the paper forms (and a spare or two in case you mess up), and fill them out. They need info about where you were born, the doctor who delivered you, your current address a…

My wife just went through this (first time passport after she became a citizen) a few months ago and the process is largely unchanged from when I did it like 15 years ago.

If I'm being polite I'd call your representation here "intentionally misleading".

You can print the forms at home or anywhere else (https://www.canada.ca/content/dam/ircc/migration/ircc/englis...). If you're unable to print a copy yourself at home or work, print them at your library, get a friend to print them, get a copy shop to print them, or figure out literally any possible way to turn a PDF into paper then yes, you can get a copy of the application from the post office or Service Canada.

There was no information requested about "the doctor who delivered you".

Your guarantor does _not_ need to be a public servant. It's literally anyone with a Canadian passport that has known you for two years, including family. Public servants (doctors, judges, lawyers, police officers, dean of a university, signing officer of a financial institution, etc) are an _alternative_ if you cannot find literally a single person in your life that has known you for two years with a passport and have no relatives with a passport. And if that fails, you can just fill out a form saying you literally know nobody.

As to the rest, the actual requirements[0] are:

You need to provide:

  - Proof of Canadian citizenship (birth certificate, certificate of citizenship, etc)
  - A piece of photo ID from any local or foreign government entity. You can submit a photocopy if a guarantor signs it.
  - Two passport photos but they're really not as difficult to obtain as you're trying to imply. Walmart does them for like $8. Pretty much any drug store will do them. Costco does them. You need to get one of them signed by your guarantor.
  - Two references: Literally any two adults that have known you for at least two years that aren't related to you. They do not need to be citizens. They don't need to sign anything. Just write down two people you've known for two years.
Then you mail it in.

My wife ran to the Shoppers down the block and got her photos in ten minutes, took us maybe 30 minutes to print and fill out the application and a ninety cent stamp to mail it.

[0] https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#99
post #11

In Ukraine, there is a DIYA (Дія) app developed by the government, which holds electronic national passport, passport for traveling abroad, driving license, car registration documents (including car insurance information), child birth certificate (in parents app) and tax payer information. The app generates temporarily barcodes which can be scanned by another DIYA app to verify somebody's identity or presented docume…

It's so convenient that you could even download similar databases from internet :) Database of passports and TIN of Ukraine (7 500 000 rows) https://raidforums.com/Thread-SELLING-Ukraine-Passports-INN-...

The implementation of Diya has probably nothing to do with that, as it was a pretty common PR topic for the police to find and seize stolen passport / tax data for at least the last decade. With so many government agencies having their own low security databases and employees paid $300/mo there's nothing surprising when dumps are so easy to obtain.

Re: Virtual passport app presents real data risk, experts warn

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

University of Southampton/ECS, in the UK. It's understandable as IBM have a large campus about 30 minutes away in Hursley near Winchester. I know 2 people who interned there and whos fathers also worked there, 3 who were hired (plus more from my course). They would run tours for undergrad CS students where we'd get on a coach to Hursley, tour around some flashy mainframes behind big windows, have a talk from someone…

And there's a number of students who graduate from there without being able to code? Having completed an Computer/Software Engineering degree?

The course is what you make of it. It's possible to scrape through the compulsory programming modules in the first 2 years with poor programming skills, and then by careful choice of modules and leaving the coding to others in group work, get by without really being able to code. They will have needed to code during the first few years to some extent, but can mostly get away with not coding in later years if they go for modules that skew towards maths or academic research.

When I say "unable to code" here I mean unable to produce working solutions to problems in a professional environment. I'm sure these people can get a few ifs/loops together in Java.

Because the course is what you make of it, there are plenty of excellent programmers by the end, and the department has a good relationship with some great grad programmes at companies like ARM, Google, Microfocus, the finance industry, etc. IBM just look for a different kind of student.

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