Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore • Hacker News Board

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#481

Post by toss1 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:14 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #424

toss1 wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems they recently launched late last year [0], some of the miners went on strike seeing the actual mining deal worse than they expected in several ways [1], and current price is going up a bit in the last few days, but consistently down vs BTC [2]. They may be having some success on their original purpose, having just passed 2.5 billion GB on the network, i.e., 2.5 exabytes, and 1300 miners, 200+ projects and 5900+…

Do you know if they list the price of storing/accessing 1 GB on Filecoin compared to say AWS? It's obvious that people who own Bitcoin would want to use the system in order to show usefulness, demand, however I'm wondering if there's any use of people who aren't financially incentivized (like early adopters who have the most to gain).

Good question, but IDK. Current price is around $37/Filecoin, falling from $45 earlier in the week, but I have no idea what one Filecoin buys in terms of storage. Let me know if you find out more, and I'll do the same

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#482

Post by rank0 » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:15 PM UTC

DennisP wrote: post #464

rank0 wrote: post #397

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So the stability fee you pay is 4.50%. The fees I am seeing on Uniswap/Aave are much much higher than 4.5%. Even at 4.5% that equates to six figures of additional interest payments over my 30 year mortgage. > and you didn't have to pay a capital gains tax. This isn't true. Any conversion between crypto assets is technically a taxable event...even if we both can agree that the rules are silly. > Eventually, some com…

The idea is that it's not a conversion, it's a loan. The collateral is held in a smart contract and when you pay off the loan you get it back. In much the same way, people take out loans on their stock portfolios, and they don't pay capital gains either.

Is there any definitive source on this? I get lots of conflicting information from my brief google search. Equities and Cryptocurrencies are not treated the same for tax purposes by the IRS. It seems like they are treated as property and do not qualify as a "fungible" asset like stock or USD.

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#483

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

dorkwood wrote: post #474

lazzlazzlazz wrote: post #375

The Hacker News community has long been anti-crypto, and as someone deeply involved in the space, these long threads of complaints and diatribes are difficult to handle. Everyone is missing so much context. Ethereum gas prices are astronomical because there's unprecedented demand to use the network: NFT art and collectibles are exploding (NBA TopShot, Foundation, SuperRare, Rarible, OpenSea, etc.) at the same time De…

> The naysayers who think this is all for a quick buck are missing the pattern and listening too much to the (admittedly, insanely loud and annoying) shills. I'm part of a community that's currently being overtaken by the crypto art craze, and I'm still convinced it's "all for a quick buck". The crypto art economy seems to be driven by "collectors" who will drop thousands of dollars on anyone who can get them more ex…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

A lot of people buy art not because they like looking at it, but because they want everyone to know that they have lots of money to drop on worthless art purchases. This motivation is reinforced if a.) everybody knows how much money they're dropping on art purchases and b.) the price keeps going up, yet they still win the bid. They want the price to go up, since a higher price just signifies how baller they are.

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#484

Post by csa » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

lazzlazzlazz wrote: post #418

albntomat0 wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an outsider missing context, what are the answers to the following? They are all valid questions that come up every time, and aren't well answered, given my research into them. - Is the long term alternatives to PoW actually viable, given the huge power consumption of cryptocurrency currently? - Are the valid use cases (other than drugs, ransomware and speculation) worth the valuation? - If Tether collapses, due t…

1. This has been resolved for years. See Celo and NEAR as examples of fully-programmable Proof of Stake blockchains that are live. 2. Yes. 3. It'll be a significant issue for decentralized exchanges and liquidity pools, but far from existential. The seasonal Tether FUD is generally overstated. (I have done a detailed analysis of this, but it exceeds the scope of this conversation.)

> 2. Yes.

This is sadly a non-answer to the question posed.

I am asked this question all the time by people I know, and the best I can come up with is illegal activities, super niche tech applications (e.g., DNS name reg), and libertarian fantasies.

You have an audience here at HN who is more than willing to advocate for cryptocurrencies if they/we can be shown a compelling use case.

“Yes” is not an obvious compelling use case.

Please elaborate.

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#485

Post by potta_coffee » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:16 PM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #450

jordanmarshall wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Help me understand the appeal of NFT art. I love digital art, but I don't see the appeal of spending money to get the token certifying you as the owner. The image/work is still out there and can be viewed/downloaded by other people. You don't even control it, unless the artist agrees to send you all of the files and delete them on his or her system. Your name doesn't even appear next to the piece when people look at…

Why do people buy originals rather than prints, often at a 10x markup? Why do they get certified dog breeds rather than mutts from the animal shelter? Why do people pay for skins and unique items in video games? Why will people spend $300K on a college degree when the coursework itself is available for free on the Internet? A lot of times, people just want a limited-supply token from a third-party saying "yes, I paid…

A digital mcguffin doesn't have the properties of a unique painting on a canvas.

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#486

Post by gnopgnip » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:19 PM UTC

jordanmarshall wrote: post #439

lazzlazzlazz wrote: post #375

The Hacker News community has long been anti-crypto, and as someone deeply involved in the space, these long threads of complaints and diatribes are difficult to handle. Everyone is missing so much context. Ethereum gas prices are astronomical because there's unprecedented demand to use the network: NFT art and collectibles are exploding (NBA TopShot, Foundation, SuperRare, Rarible, OpenSea, etc.) at the same time De…

Help me understand the appeal of NFT art. I love digital art, but I don't see the appeal of spending money to get the token certifying you as the owner. The image/work is still out there and can be viewed/downloaded by other people. You don't even control it, unless the artist agrees to send you all of the files and delete them on his or her system. Your name doesn't even appear next to the piece when people look at…

It creates artificial scarcity for a digital product

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#487

Post by nostrademons » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

humaniania wrote: post #403

rawtxapp wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Borrowing, lending, decentralized exchanges, innovations like flash loans that are just not possible in current financial system. The sky is the limit in terms of innovations possible, it's literally some code running on the global computer that is Ethereum.

Not only are all those things possible (other than decentralized, because that has a high cost and no tangible benefit) in the normal banking system but there's apps for them already. And they are from regulated companies and you have legal protections.

Flash loans aren't really; nobody will lend you money against zero collateral that you pay back instantaneously after a transaction, because in the traditional banking system there's always a risk of default and a transaction cost for enforcing your rights in case of default. With a flash loan the whole transaction fails if at the end of the transaction you don't have sufficient funds to pay it back, while you're guaranteed payback if it succeeds.

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#488

Post by chowells » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:20 PM UTC

rudderz wrote: post #475

chowells wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe somehow they simultaneously have plenty of knowledge and don't agree with you. So in the spirit of education - what amazing things are there about ethereum or Bitcoin that will change my mind about their intrinsic value that I don't already know? (My current opinion is that the intrinsic value of PoW systems is negative due to low actual utility and very high cost.)

What's the intrinsic value of USD? It's a garbage pre-mined token that's continually debased at the behest of a cabal of rich bankers so they can purchase real assets and consolidate the world's wealth. The petrodollar isn't exactly efficient either, considering the costs of the military industrial complex. Every year the USD is worth less. Every year BTC is worth more. Hope that helps.

Nope. That's the sort of argument that makes your position weaker. You see, USD has a government that asserts it is legal tender for all debts within its borders and military power to back up those assertions.

These are the sort of real-world constraints that you can't just ignore. Attempting to do so makes me less charitable towards other assertions you might make. You come across as an idealist talking about their perfect dream world, not someone describing reality. Now don't get me wrong - it's important to have a perfect dream world. If you aren't working towards something, what are you doing?

But at the same time, you have to accept that "this system is perfect, if you also change these thousand other things" is not compelling to someone who doesn't share your idea of utopia. To convince someone like me, you have to explain how the system improves the world as it exists now.

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#489

Post by lazzlazzlazz » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:21 PM UTC

csa wrote: post #484

lazzlazzlazz wrote: post #418

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. This has been resolved for years. See Celo and NEAR as examples of fully-programmable Proof of Stake blockchains that are live. 2. Yes. 3. It'll be a significant issue for decentralized exchanges and liquidity pools, but far from existential. The seasonal Tether FUD is generally overstated. (I have done a detailed analysis of this, but it exceeds the scope of this conversation.)

> 2. Yes. This is sadly a non-answer to the question posed. I am asked this question all the time by people I know, and the best I can come up with is illegal activities, super niche tech applications (e.g., DNS name reg), and libertarian fantasies. You have an audience here at HN who is more than willing to advocate for cryptocurrencies if they/we can be shown a compelling use case. “Yes” is not an obvious compellin…

I have this discussion at least once a week. What would you build if you could deploy an uninterruptible, transparently verifiable, fully autonomous software application? I promise you that we can discuss many examples (any kind of marketplace or platform but with community governance and no rents, decentralized exchanges, global-by-default payments, highly interoperable and efficient financial infrastructure), but what would you build?

That's the answer to your question.

Re: Ethereum Isn't Fun Anymore

#490

Post by Jtsummers » Mon, Feb 22, 2021, 6:23 PM UTC

parliament32 wrote: post #444

nitrogen wrote: post #436

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If actual, real consumers and professionals can't buy gear because it's being hoarded by miners, yeah, that's pretty wasteful (as in, a thing that consumes vast resources without benefiting very many people).

Heaven forbid the manufacturers actually, you know, increase production to meet the demand for their hardware.

Haha. That doesn't always work.

The present demand is spurred by the boom phase of a potential boom-bust cycle (similar to oil). You have two (actually more) sources of demand: crypto, conventional buyers (retail and industry customers). If they adjust production upward (which requires an investment of capital) to meet the present demand then they reduce their profit, prices will go up (at least a bit) to compensate. But they also face another risk: what if there's a bust? If the crypto demand for hardware bottoms out (whether because of a change in crypto or having satisfied the demand) they will be left with excess capacity and potentially excess inventory. The increased production capacity may be able to be redirected to other productive endeavors, or it may just end up idle. And the excess inventory has to be sold off at a potential loss as the hardware becomes worth less and less as each day passes (plus holding inventory costs money).

Instead, if they leave production as is (or only increase it slightly) they can virtually guarantee their products will sell out and increase the prices because they know people will continue to buy it. Obviously, the retail and industry customers get screwed because they have less profit to make (if any) directly off the hardware purchase, but the miners will continue to buy almost without regard to the price because their profits (presently) justify the investment.