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Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

outsideonline.com

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Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#11

Post by helge9210 »

The relevant part of the article:

> When I pressed Kram and Swinnen for their preferred explanations, they pointed out that efficient runners use their stretchy tendons and ligaments to store elastic energy to be “recycled” from stride to stride. The push and pull between tendon and muscle is so finely tuned that your muscles stay roughly the same length throughout the stride instead of shortening and lengthening with each contraction. Optimizing this aspect of running is invisible to the naked eye and beyond conscious control, but it may be one of the crucial skills that improve with experience.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#12

Post by ambivalents »

theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

I agree, but then if this is just looking at the physiological effects of training, and not the accoutrements of training, I think you would need to hold the bike constant. Perhaps you can get more efficient at cycling with better frame geometry etc but this is just looking at what the human body alone can do.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#13

Post by ambivalents »

helge9210 wrote: post #11

The relevant part of the article: > When I pressed Kram and Swinnen for their preferred explanations, they pointed out that efficient runners use their stretchy tendons and ligaments to store elastic energy to be “recycled” from stride to stride. The push and pull between tendon and muscle is so finely tuned that your muscles stay roughly the same length throughout the stride instead of shortening and lengthening wit…

And this:

> Is there anything we can say for sure? How about: Yes, you can get more efficient at running. You probably can’t get more efficient at cycling—at least not by an amount that’s worth spending a lot of time fretting about.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#14

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

the same can be said for running on a belt all the time. it's OK as substitute for when temperatures fall too far, but certainly worse result than when torturing yourself with real terrain. (alas always better than ending the season before it starts with a broken ankle)

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#15

Post by ak217 »

ambivalents wrote: post #12
theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

I agree, but then if this is just looking at the physiological effects of training, and not the accoutrements of training, I think you would need to hold the bike constant. Perhaps you can get more efficient at cycling with better frame geometry etc but this is just looking at what the human body alone can do.

I think the problem is that cyclists get more efficient over time on their bike and on the kind of course they are familiar with. In this study, they didn't even have clip-in pedals: "Because not all of the runners were familiar with cycling shoes, all participants cycled in their own running shoes on flat pedals without toe clips or straps."

On a constant-speed training bike without clip-in pedals, a road cyclist will be pretty far out of their element. A lot of the efficiency gain in cycling comes from adding rigidity to the power train between the foot and the road, and from the continuous power application that clip-in pedals and shoes enable.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#16

Post by orthopodvt »

The study conditions are so artificial (very slow), that any potential efficiencies would likely be negligible. My son, who ran track in college used to tell me that it was harder to run at a 7 minute mile pace than 6 minute mile pace, because they were doing all their training to run at sub-5 pace. My experience on the bike is similar. AS for the author's comment about how easy the neuromuscular coordination to bike is, he probably hasn't tried to consistently maintain a cadence of 110-120 rpm. It takes practice to be able to do that smoothly, and improves your technique when you're going at a slower pace.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#18

Post by 1_2__4 »

theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

I would go even further and say that a stationary bike behaves quite differently than a moving bicycle. There’s side to side/rocking motion, slippage at the wheels, geometry in turns etc. A stationary bike is incredibly constricting, eliminating a lot of different factors in a way that treadmill running just doesn’t (it’s much more similar to running in motion).

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#19

Post by MrFantastic »

helge9210 wrote: post #11

The relevant part of the article: > When I pressed Kram and Swinnen for their preferred explanations, they pointed out that efficient runners use their stretchy tendons and ligaments to store elastic energy to be “recycled” from stride to stride. The push and pull between tendon and muscle is so finely tuned that your muscles stay roughly the same length throughout the stride instead of shortening and lengthening wit…

You can spot inefficient runners once you know what to look for.

Efficient runners are striding 20 or 30% faster. Usually over 180 strides/minute.

If you look at the efficient runners head looks like it's floating smoothly. If you are bouncing you are losing energy.

Re: Training Makes Runners More Efficient, but Not Cyclists (2018)

#20

Post by nightski »

theptip wrote: post #7

> A caveat: The cycling in the new study was performed on stationary bikes at a predetermined cadence. It’s possible that the benefits of experience and bike-specific training would be more noticeable on the open road at a freely chosen cadence. A pretty big caveat. I’m not surprised that cycling on a stationary bike at a fixed cadence has very little room for skill/technique improvements. This invalidates the result…

I'm pretty sure biking at a fixed cadence outside would have a poor result as well in flat terrain.

At the end of the day I've seen massive improvements in my cycling ability when regularly doing a HIIT bike routine (such as sufferfest for example) on a trainer such as the wahoo kickr.

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