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Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

bbc.com

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Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#221

Post by mensetmanusman »

yange wrote: post #139
seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking. I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection. I…

This is beautiful, thank you

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#222

Post by john4532452 »

archibaldJ wrote: post #202
enriquto wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I work with a lot of folks from China and they (...) What you say represents about 50% of Chinese researchers in my lab. Those that immediately return to their country after the PhD and you never hear from them again. The other 50% are the complete opposite: they cannot wait to get their family out of the country and never look back, explaining that the country is ruled by a bunch of crazy psycopaths. Curiously eno…

It's ultimiately a matter of dependency i.e. econmically well-off Chinese people who have dependencies with CCP (e.g. official party member (6.6% of the population), or owning a family business that interfaces with CCP, even if unofficially, etc), V.S. well-off Chinese with little or no dependencies. To be where they are now (outside of China receiving education, etc), the former group (or their parents/relatives) fo…

Thanks for this post. Every support or opposition towards authority boils down to economic incentives. Glad to hear from some one from the inside.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#223

Post by dumb1224 »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #215
yange wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like a normal person, I'm against any inhumane treatment in any form against innocent people. These personal stories from these victims are most likely true. I feel sad and angry about what happened to them and would like to see changes. You know, even average schools in China looks more like a prison than actual prisons in the west. (Which remind me of this: https://www.schoolprison.com/ ) You will often find 8-12 s…

> the Xinjiang situation was mostly a response to the non-stopping terror attacks in the region for the last couple of decades The Chinese crackdown on Xinjiang goes back well beyond the terror attacks. There used to be a secular, non-violent Uighur movement for their rights, including Uighur communists who simply wanted the right to use their own language at all times and not Chinese, like the laws ostensibly allow.…

I appreciate your point. But it is only one-sided story. Both sides have been victims of historical conflict, there is a long history of han ethnic people being driven away too. Arguing who did wrong first is a bit like a religious debate. Look at the globe one shouldn't fail to see it's a common pattern (Palestine etc). To argue who has the ultimate rights to the land is a tricky and dangerous task.

Another observation I have is that there's little mention of the history of Xinjiang itself. The long-standing threat from Russian influence starting from before Republic of China (ROC) period. And the autonomous Muslim defense against russian puppet gov https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_rebellion_in_Xinjiang_... and even the later alliance with the communist party. Sure you could argue from one-side that all that is happening is wrong but unfortunately a lot of the evidence today are from anti-china alliance such as epoch times, which in my opinion really hides the real issues of the chinese society.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#224

Post by chii »

archibaldJ wrote: post #202
enriquto wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I work with a lot of folks from China and they (...) What you say represents about 50% of Chinese researchers in my lab. Those that immediately return to their country after the PhD and you never hear from them again. The other 50% are the complete opposite: they cannot wait to get their family out of the country and never look back, explaining that the country is ruled by a bunch of crazy psycopaths. Curiously eno…

It's ultimiately a matter of dependency i.e. econmically well-off Chinese people who have dependencies with CCP (e.g. official party member (6.6% of the population), or owning a family business that interfaces with CCP, even if unofficially, etc), V.S. well-off Chinese with little or no dependencies. To be where they are now (outside of China receiving education, etc), the former group (or their parents/relatives) fo…

> And most of his colleagues and superordinates don't like him

they don't like him not because of the ladder climb, but because him being a goody-two-shoe means that their corrupt activities are more likely to be shown as "wrong", and therefore, more risky for them.

it's like being a good cop in a department where the other cops are bought and paid for.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#225

Post by dumb1224 »

jo3483754 wrote: post #161
yange wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking. I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection. I…

"You cannot trust anything reported out of China" does not need to mean what you are taking it as. It is true you cannot trust anything reported out of China. But that's not the same as saying not to believe anything reported out of China. The former is a fact, you should be skeptical instead of blindly trust a country known for propaganda. The latter is racist, saying nothing China says is true. There are a few peop…

I understand the feeling of my follows, they are hot-blood emotional beings.... What I could summarise more abstractly is this: they are not discrediting the news sources abroad, but instead, because chinese society / us people are well connected (in real person). It's almost impossible to hide any major events in China, even with large scale blockage. Everyone talks to everyone. Hence the reaction from a lot of people from China is due to the fact that they understand the situation 'better' than just seeing what's reported.

I had a similar reaction back in 2010 when talking to a scientist from Libya (during the internal conflict). He was in real shock of what's been known for ages of his country in the west. Of course it doesn't mean everything in the western media is wrong. But he knew some facts that had simply not surfaced at all in people's view. I have a similar feeling now.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#226

Post by enriquto »

dumb1224 wrote: post #223
Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the Xinjiang situation was mostly a response to the non-stopping terror attacks in the region for the last couple of decades The Chinese crackdown on Xinjiang goes back well beyond the terror attacks. There used to be a secular, non-violent Uighur movement for their rights, including Uighur communists who simply wanted the right to use their own language at all times and not Chinese, like the laws ostensibly allow.…

I appreciate your point. But it is only one-sided story. Both sides have been victims of historical conflict, there is a long history of han ethnic people being driven away too. Arguing who did wrong first is a bit like a religious debate. Look at the globe one shouldn't fail to see it's a common pattern (Palestine etc). To argue who has the ultimate rights to the land is a tricky and dangerous task. Another observat…

You talk about Russian influence as a "threat", and Han influence as something natural that needs to be protected. I appreciate your respectful message, but please notice that another equally defensible position would be the opposite one: considering Han influence a "threat" to be protected against.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#227

Post by dumb1224 »

enriquto wrote: post #226
dumb1224 wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I appreciate your point. But it is only one-sided story. Both sides have been victims of historical conflict, there is a long history of han ethnic people being driven away too. Arguing who did wrong first is a bit like a religious debate. Look at the globe one shouldn't fail to see it's a common pattern (Palestine etc). To argue who has the ultimate rights to the land is a tricky and dangerous task. Another observat…

You talk about Russian influence as a "threat", and Han influence as something natural that needs to be protected. I appreciate your respectful message, but please notice that another equally defensible position would be the opposite one: considering Han influence a "threat" to be protected against.

I apologise for my choice of words, I'm not a native speaker, nor could I do it in a more diplomatic way.

However I do agree with you, for the opposite it might well see han population as a threat, probably right from the early dynasties. I have by no means implied Russian influence is 'evil', it is simply the historical narrative. It is only natural that from 1900s the powers around that area want to take control in the geopolitics. Same situation today.

My point is that if you understand the situation better (which is hard because of language / culture barriers, similar to middle east crisis), you might be able to know more nuances of the issue.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#228

Post by koheripbal »

agumonkey wrote: post #176
enriquto wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I work with a lot of folks from China and they (...) What you say represents about 50% of Chinese researchers in my lab. Those that immediately return to their country after the PhD and you never hear from them again. The other 50% are the complete opposite: they cannot wait to get their family out of the country and never look back, explaining that the country is ruled by a bunch of crazy psycopaths. Curiously eno…

Once upon a time I used to spend way to much time on Omegle (worldwide random 1:1 chat). Once a chinese girl was online, we chat about our countries, I explain how much I like china as a kid for martial arts, food, aesthetics, it was friendly and casual (chinese people on omegle often expressed worries about the value of their country, I wanted to make her feel at ease). Quickly though she started to say it's not all…

This thread is nothing but personal anecdotes.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#229

Post by koheripbal »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #201
Clewza313 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to trust anybody's reporting, you can go browse Weibo or Toutiao or Douyin and go see for yourself what regular Chinese people are saying all across China right now. Sure, anything overly political is (self-)censored and there's some actual paid wumao shills in there, but day-to-day stuff like grumbling about local government incompetence is widespread. Here's the Xinjiang hashtag, go nuts: https://m.w…

Self censorship is huge. I admire dissidents living under authoritarian regimes who are brave enough to share their stories, whether they remain there or escape.

Read the thread you're replying to - there's little self-censorship.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#230

Post by unityByFreedom »

koheripbal wrote: post #229
unityByFreedom wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self censorship is huge. I admire dissidents living under authoritarian regimes who are brave enough to share their stories, whether they remain there or escape.

Read the thread you're replying to - there's little self-censorship.

How would you measure the amount of self-censorship?
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