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I moved to Singapore

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Re: I moved to Singapore

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Westerners who've never lived there and wouldn't be in any danger of suffering any of this "harsh" treatment love to complain about Singapore. Visit sometime with an open mind.

I worked for a startup for three years whose small sAPAC headquarters moved from Sydney to Singapore. I was young, enthusiastic and very well performing (I was measured in my job each week by customers). I found most of the Singaporean staff I met a) thought I was slightly crazy b) either loved me, or hated me for the same reason: I didn't slavishly adhere to rules, particularly when it came to giving customers what…

Here we come to the nub of the matter, at least for the average HN reader: a country which is characterised by slavish obedience to authority and a willingness to trade off autonomy and the right to do something that may offend others for "social order" is a country which is very unlikely to foster a robust start-up culture.

Start-ups rely on the willingness of founders and investors to be bold, break the rules, and act without concern for what others may think. This, in turn, requires a society which embraces disorder, spontaneity and a certain degree of rebelliousness.

It's not an accident that the two countries with the most robust start-up scenes are the US and Israel, both characterised by messy and sometimes annoying individualism, robust debate, and intellectual ferment.

It's hard to be believe that a nation like Singapore, whose citizens happily trade off freedom of speech for trivialities like clean streets and the "freedom" of people not to be offended will be capable of producing the kind of rough-and-tumble Darwinian business environment and culture in which start-ups flourish.

An aside: my read of the Indian national character is that is much closer to that of the Americans than that of the Singaporese: individualistic, pluralistic, and tolerant of disorder and creativity. These is, of course, much to still be achieved in India, but I think the vector is pointed in the right direction.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#152
post #122

I love Singapore, except for the climate, which is oppressive. There is amazing hawker (street) food everywhere and, thanks for strict enforcement of health regulations, it's pretty cheap too. At least it was. It's been a few years since I was there. I kinda view Singapore as the Zurich of Asia. Zurich (and Switzerland in general) is very regulated (although Singapore more than Zurich; there are no rules against chew…

I live near Zurich but don't perceive the rules to be anywhere near as strict as you described, and would certainly not talk about "being told what to do" by the state. In Singapur, there are lots of laws unimaginable in Switzerland (for example, it's forbidden to smoke in public, you go to jail for speeding/driving while drunk, spitting or chewing gum, you'll t get killed for possessing drugs...). In Switzerland, wh…

Well, in all fairness, Switzerland is much like Monaco, Beverly Hills and certain Carribean islands in that its poverty is essentially exported.

Switzerland makes it very difficult to become a citizen unless you're born to at least one Swiss parent or you marry a Swiss citizen (there are people whose families have been living in Switzerland since the 20s who can't become citizens).

There are a large contingent of workers who work in Switzerland every day but don't live there (and, in fact, aren't allowed to even if they wanted to and could afford it), particular in Geneva.

It's also one of the most expensive countries on Earth.

So, I wouldn't say the low crime rates are so much a question of effective social policy but rather of being both wealthy and exclusionary.

Yes, laws are different between the two and certainly there are cultural differences too. Zurich is very definitely (mainland) European. Singapore is quite definitely Asian.

There are severe penalties on drug trafficking because it's a big problem, with proximity to the Golden Triangle and so on. Singapore is also surrounded by Indonesia and Malaysia, places where the illicit trades have far more freedom of movement. Singapore, with some justification, seeks to avoid being a conduit or waypoint or (even worse) a destination for the drug trade.

The no smoking in public thing I consider a huge plus. The chewing gum thing is a bit weird. I think it has something to do with vandalism.

As for Zurich being strict, I imagine you don't view them that way because you're accustomed to them. Throwing out trash is a classic example. First you have to buy Zurisache (sp?) for like 2 CHF each. Throwing them out in anything else can get you fined.

Then you have to separate your trash into three different types of glass (white, brown, green), other recyclables and non-recyclables. Where you see trash cans in public there are like 6-7 different cans for the different categories of trash.

Newspapers and possibly other forms of paper (I forget) had to be thrown out on different days to regular trash. Those had to be tied with string in a neat bundle.

All of the above is enforced by the Mutzpolizei (literally "trash police").

The anmelden/abmelden (registration) system, which is the norm on mainland Europe, is extremely weird--even invasive--to most people from English speaking countries.

In Switzerland, depending on what Canton you live in, you can't make excessive noise after 10pm or before 7am (which I actually appreciate). In Zurich in some buildings this extended to regulations in certain apartments prohibiting men from urinating while standing up at those times (due to thin walls; this was deemed "excessive noise").

Some cantons also prohibited "excessive noise" or work on Sundays (for the entire day).

IIRC there were given days where you were and weren't allowed to move house.

Switzerland has its fair share of regulation is all I'm saying.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Different kinds of freedom". Whenever anyone says this, I get very nervous. It's pretty clear that these "different kinds" are not real freedom at all, and so don't include things like freedom of speech, the ability to truly determine who governs you, or even the freedom to water or not water the plants in front of your apartment (failing to do the latter in Singapore will result in a visit from the cops). Here's a…

Classic essay on negative and positive liberty: http://jmaggio.typepad.com/no_call_me_jay/files/two_concepts... http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/

Thanks for posting these links; they look very interesting.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#155

Are you enjoying living in a police state? Seriously.

Actually, there are many folks who say: "I don't enjoy living in a police state, so I moved from [US/EU] to [Singapore/Hong Kong/Chile/etc]. Those are the people who do not spit chewing gum anyway, who don't need to smoke outside anyway, who don't take drugs anyway, who don't care much about the western "political process" and "participation" (ie. majority decides to redistribute other peoples' income for this or that pet project or an undefinable "common good") anyway -- but who increasingly DO care about and frown on ever more regulations getting in the way of their perfectly legitimate non-harmful businesses, increasingly totalitarian approaches to net censorship and surveillance, unprecedented intrusive airport patdowns, massive tax burdens on their startups (a tax dollar saved is a profit dollar earned and keeps people employed and prices competetive etc.) -- believe it or not, they feel they gain a few years of "freedom" -- the freedom to build something profitable privately and keep it running and earn its proceeds -- in places like SG, HK, UAE.

Yes, Jehova's Witnesses shouldn't be jailed and talk about Islam shouldn't be regulated by the state. But then the state also shouldn't strangle and paralyze up and coming non-aggressive mutually beneficial peaceful productive businesses. So to any entrepreneur or business guy who personally doesn't care about Jehovas Witnesses and Islam, which places do you think represent the greener pasture?

Re: I moved to Singapore

#156
post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech." I'm not sure I can digest that outright. Can you elaborate?

The law is not just about porn, but also other "obscene material" like pro-LGBT material, material critical of the regime (Wired is banned because of this), illegal Bibles etc.

Wired is not banned you can get the UK & US editions in most bookshops. It's just expensive!

Various publications that have been critical of the political environment have been dragged into court to deal with Singapore's not-so-friendly libel laws.

The LGBT situation is culturally more acceptable than it was, but there is still a lot of work to be done.

NB: I am a liberal Brit who lives and works in Singapore (nearly 5 years now)

Re: I moved to Singapore

#157
post #70

Race: Caucasian Maybe it's cultural bias, but I was really surprised they'd list something like that on an ID card!

One od the reasons is that Singapore is pro-racial integration, so they put it on virtually every official form... for example there are rules to prevent segregation by 'race' within the public housing system.

But even after living here 4 years it still strikes me as strange.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#158
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

laws are only for the undesired. here in california I'm a criminal for having a gps on my wind shield. but as long as I'm not a minority/pissing an officer/disturbing the status quo/etc, I'm fine. "to my friends everything.to my enemies, the law."

It is legal to have a GPS on your windshield in California. http://dmv.ca.gov/pubs/vctop/d12/vc26708.htm section 12

...on the most inconvinient spots.

also, what if it have back up camera or radar detection? both features pretty common but outlawed.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#159
post #94
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you referring to rights of anarchism? I'm no trespasser and trouble maker, but I can tell you that anybody is free to do whatever they intend to in Australia, so as long as it doesn't impair other people doing so. In other words, you're as free as you can be without causing damage to others. I'm not sure what you're referring to though. On my way home I saw dudes roller-blading half naked in the city. I call that…

No. I'm referring to the constitutional right to free speech. The statement "anybody is free to do whatever they intend to in Australia, so as long as it doesn't impair other people doing so" is as absurd as it is false. There are reams of legislation to prevent you from doing everything from arriving unlawfully by boat, to lying about your income, to using a wire carriage service to cause offence. As to speech, here…

I live in a poor neighborhood in Indiana (USA) (ah, but the house was cheap) and I would really like point (a). Speaking personally.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#160
post #87
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And jaywalking is illegal in the US too. Depends on where you are. Most cities and college towns in the US don't care where you cross the road so long as you're not doing it recklessly, and places where laws are enforced generally have nothing more than extremely small fines. I'd rather not live in a society that restricts human liberties to the point of making citizens robotic. Yeah, the US has its share of problem…

My friends Dad, travelling in the US, had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking. I'm sure that is not the typical experience of most people, but I thought it an interesting anecdote after seeing the parents post...

>> had the police order him off the street at gun point because he was jaywalking.

I simply don't believe your friend's dad was telling the truth. There are plenty of bad cops in the US, but drawing a gun on someone because they were jaywalking? I call bullshit.

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