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Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

bbc.com

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Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#161

Post by jo3483754 »

yange wrote: post #139
seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking. I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection. I…

"You cannot trust anything reported out of China" does not need to mean what you are taking it as. It is true you cannot trust anything reported out of China. But that's not the same as saying not to believe anything reported out of China. The former is a fact, you should be skeptical instead of blindly trust a country known for propaganda. The latter is racist, saying nothing China says is true. There are a few people saying forms of the latter. But most here seem to be saying more the former, that strong skepticism is needed. This isn't inherently racist, and it even aligns with your whole point here, thus is the opposite of a fallacy.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#162

Post by refurb »

ncann wrote: post #142
totalZero wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the USA (taken as an aggregate of its citizens' views) has a far stronger ethical compass than your comment seems to suggest. So to answer your question, yes to the former question. Maybe yes to the latter question too, but as an "and" not an "or".

There seems to be a disconnect between what the US says and what it does. I certainly believe US people have a strong ethical compass in their world view, at least from the people I interact with and what I read every day. At the same time, with all the things the US does, especially in the middle East, it's hard to take that "moral compass" seriously.

Is there any country where there isn’t a strong disconnect between what they say and what they do?

I mean, that’s kind of a human thing.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#163

Post by ngcazz »

underseacables wrote: post #32
seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

You cannot trust anything reported out of China, absolutely nothing. I do not doubt that there are people being slaughtered and massacred as I write, but anything reported out of China must be taken deeply suspicious, especially if it comes from the government. The Chinese government is the single greatest threat to freedom, and human rights this world has ever seen.

And American imperialism is what, just and benign?

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#164

Post by andresp »

lookdangerous wrote: post #35
almost_usual wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are comments on HN right now where people are questioning whether freedom of speech is good in the US by US citizens. Why would someone from China think it’s working after the shit show of 2020 and our own citizens not having confidence?

There’s a credible case to be made that freedom of speech has allowed the US to prosper.

Who cares if it allowed the US to prosper? Freedom of speech is not about economic output but a value system. This utilitarian moral relativism might make sense in China but it is not part of modern Western culture. It was a civilisational conquest and a difficult one to obtain.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#165

Post by andresp »

xwolfi wrote: post #111
almost_usual wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are comments on HN right now where people are questioning whether freedom of speech is good in the US by US citizens. Why would someone from China think it’s working after the shit show of 2020 and our own citizens not having confidence?

I'll be blunt, I was raised in a european democracy and live in China, I don't think democracy works anymore lol Trump is a big component, but the Brexit or what they do in Hungary, pff it's just disheartening. I don't think China will forever sustain that large a monitoring, it's just inefficient the closer they get from an intellectual super power, but I have 0 respect for the US, or their "freedom of being an idio…

Please stay in China and be happy there.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#166

Post by threatofrain »

yange wrote: post #139
seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking. I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection. I…

Is this true for Chinese academics though? Are Chinese mathematicians uncreative and uninspired? Are Chinese scientists disadvantaged vs western scientists due to conformist thought?

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#167

Post by dependsontheq »

ncann wrote: post #142
totalZero wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the USA (taken as an aggregate of its citizens' views) has a far stronger ethical compass than your comment seems to suggest. So to answer your question, yes to the former question. Maybe yes to the latter question too, but as an "and" not an "or".

There seems to be a disconnect between what the US says and what it does. I certainly believe US people have a strong ethical compass in their world view, at least from the people I interact with and what I read every day. At the same time, with all the things the US does, especially in the middle East, it's hard to take that "moral compass" seriously.

There is no right way and ethical way to do things in the Middle East - there is just the weird unsolvable status quo and weird things the US or anyone else can do - which might not actually have an effect on anything. I understand the criticism but I never read a book that showed a path forward.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#168

Post by danShumway »

dirtyid wrote: post #158
danShumway wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But not at odds about the "crimes against humanity" part, right? Basically everyone except the CCP's PR department agrees that China is engaging in an ethnic cleansing. This article isn't disagreeing with that, it's not debating that the State department over-exaggerated or misrepresented the extent of the problem. Instead, it's arguing a semantic point that "cultural" genocide is harder to pin down than overt WW2-st…

>Basically everyone Plurality of countries, including majority Islamic countries, have stated positions that still support Chinese actions in XJ as counter insurgency. CCP has and maintained the dominant narrative. >semantic point Semantics is the only context that matters if the goal is to trigger legal consequences. Cultural genocide doesn't legally exist, it's a more apt label but one that does not have any diplom…

[flagged]

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#169

Post by dirtyid »

yange wrote: post #139
seattle_spring wrote: post #22

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking. I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection. I…

It's always ironic to see people claim their very smart Chinese colleagues being brainwashed, when these colleagues have experience in both east and west - they're not the ones with singular perspective and the information deficit. Chinese who have lived through daily propaganda inherently understands nature of propaganda. Very few take official news sources at face value. Not to mention more multilingual Chinese with English fluency able to share news from across the wall. You can't say the same about anglosphere and Chinese information literacy. The amount of absolutely ignorant western commentary on China is staggering, where as Chinese net actually has western perspectives that somewhat comport with reality. Access to free information ≠ being informed. China's Great Fire Wall is crudely designed to produce ignorance via hardware, the elegant strategy in manufactured consent is ignorance subsumed at the biologic level. Free Fifth Estate generates dogmatism in absence of media literacy and produce a polity seemingly indistinguishable from state media but accompanied by staggering obliviousness. Incidentally, in terms of foreign reporting, BBC is functionally satisfying it's position as state funded propaganda. Those from global south diaspora in the west will attest how egregious BBC foreign reporting is.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#170

Post by zaik »

crashdelta wrote: post #31
yumraj wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the Muslim countries care, No!

That's the interesting part TBH... why is nobody sticking up for them?

In politics, everything happens primarily to gain or maintain power. If some group of people is not relevant for either, people in power will not stick up for them.
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