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Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

bbc.com

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Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The Thucydides Trap, also referred to as Thucydides's Trap, is a term popularized by American political scientist Graham T. Allison to describe an apparent tendency towards war when an emerging power threatens to displace an existing great power as the international hegemon. It was coined and is primarily used to describe a potential conflict between the United States and the People's Republic of China. One shouldn'…

It's the full pattern. Does anyone think the USA actually cares about central asian muslims? With our record and the records of our allies? Or is this coming from collective anxiety over being eclipsed?

I think the USA (taken as an aggregate of its citizens' views) has a far stronger ethical compass than your comment seems to suggest.

So to answer your question, yes to the former question. Maybe yes to the latter question too, but as an "and" not an "or".

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#132

> State Department Lawyers Concluded Insufficient Evidence to Prove Genocide in China > The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighurs in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump an…

But not at odds about the "crimes against humanity" part, right? Basically everyone except the CCP's PR department agrees that China is engaging in an ethnic cleansing.

This article isn't disagreeing with that, it's not debating that the State department over-exaggerated or misrepresented the extent of the problem. Instead, it's arguing a semantic point that "cultural" genocide is harder to pin down than overt WW2-style death camps. It argues that if we call this genocide, then nobody will care about a bigger issue down the road. But given that the United States and other allies have been shockingly derelict in holding China to account over what is widely agreed to be an ethnic cleansing, the decay of the word "genocide" as an accurate descriptor of a coordinated effort to eliminate a culture should not be our top worry right now.

I do not buy the article's concerns. It is wild to me that people can argue we're being too aggressive talking about China right now. We are not being aggressive enough. International courts are not pursuing China strongly enough right now. The CCP is being ignored even though the actual facts of the case are agreed on by almost everyone even in this article -- that China is attempting to eliminate an entire culture, and they are deploying horrifying methods in the pursuit of that goal.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#133
This article downplays the most horrendous act of genocide: systematic, state-endorsed RAPE of Uighur women and girls (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071)

Mass extermination is obvious, but here's another way to destroy a nation: through the deepest, most unutterable form of demoralization.

And I think the reason it's not more in the headlines is precisely because of its nature: we don't want to think about this kind of act, on a mass scale, perpetrated by one of the most powerful nations in the world, indirectly supported by Western economies and politics.

The BBC report is considered credible. The best thing we can do is to spread it, and hope it becomes viral - so that business with China becomes absolutely socially unacceptable.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#134

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

> I work with a lot of folks from China and they (...) What you say represents about 50% of Chinese researchers in my lab. Those that immediately return to their country after the PhD and you never hear from them again. The other 50% are the complete opposite: they cannot wait to get their family out of the country and never look back, explaining that the country is ruled by a bunch of crazy psycopaths. Curiously eno…

The question is, are their psychopaths crazier than our psychopaths.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free press is a nebulous concept, especially considering that for all but the most naive or disingenuous person the mass media press is an indirect tool of the intelligence services of each country. > China controls flow of information so tightly, that even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise. You could say exactly the same about the military occupation of every country, or are we getting th…

I am also not Chinese, American or European, but I will say that prejudice is totally warranted against authoritarian regimes. Free press simply refers to an ability to present an opposing view point, which authoritarian governments despise.

Where is the opposite point the western "free press" saying, maybe China is not committing Genocide? Because reading publications like The Economist, The New York Times or The Guardian you will never find it.Where is the opposite point in the mainstream press asking for GW Bush to be trialed as a war criminal (which he is)?

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Free press is a nebulous concept, especially considering that for all but the most naive or disingenuous person the mass media press is an indirect tool of the intelligence services of each country. > China controls flow of information so tightly, that even rumours should be considered credible unless proven otherwise. You could say exactly the same about the military occupation of every country, or are we getting th…

It isn't nebulous. In China you and your family disappear if you criticize the CCP, even if you do so while overseas. Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed.

> Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed.

Like Assange did?

https://cpj.org/reports/2020/12/record-number-journalists-ja...

> This marks the fifth consecutive year that repressive governments have imprisoned at least 250 journalists. Lack of global leadership on democratic values – particularly from the United States, where President Donald Trump has inexhaustibly denigrated the press and cozied up to dictators such as Egyptian President Abdelfattah el-Sisi – has perpetuated the crisis. As authoritarians leveraged Trump’s “fake news” rhetoric to justify their actions – particularly in Egypt – the number of journalists jailed on “false news” charges steadily increased. This year, 34 journalists were jailed for “false news,” compared with 31 last year.

> Within the United States, no journalists were jailed at the time of CPJ’s prison census, but an unprecedented 110 journalists were arrested or criminally charged in 2020 and around 300 were assaulted, the majority by law enforcement, according to the U.S. Press Freedom Tracker. At least 12 still face criminal charges, some of which carry jail terms. Observers told CPJ that the polarized political climate, militarized law enforcement, and vitriol toward the media combined during a wave of protests to eradicate norms that once afforded journalists police protection.

But by all means keep believing in a black and white world.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I work with a lot of folks from China and they (...) What you say represents about 50% of Chinese researchers in my lab. Those that immediately return to their country after the PhD and you never hear from them again. The other 50% are the complete opposite: they cannot wait to get their family out of the country and never look back, explaining that the country is ruled by a bunch of crazy psycopaths. Curiously eno…

The question is, are their psychopaths crazier than our psychopaths.

I politely refuse to partake in this kind of questions :)

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#138

This article downplays the most horrendous act of genocide: systematic, state-endorsed RAPE of Uighur women and girls ( https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55794071 ) Mass extermination is obvious, but here's another way to destroy a nation: through the deepest, most unutterable form of demoralization. And I think the reason it's not more in the headlines is precisely because of its nature: we don't want to thi…

Indirectly supported by all the cheap unnecessary shit we buy.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#139

I work with a lot of folks from China and they are bending over backwards trying to defend the CCP. Their argument almost always boils down to "I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." Equivalent to someone using their one black friend as proof that they can't possibly be racist.

I'm Chinese. Many languages and expressions in this thread not only detests me but also represent the very opposite of western critical thinking.

I appreciate the western style of logical thinking. You are being taught in schools how to tell the truth and bust lies, to criticize, to doubt, to ask questions no one dares to ask. You are taught definitions of fallacies, the art of debate, the wisdom of introspection.

I envy you, having been taught so many ways to learn, to listen, to ask.

You know, in China, they don't teach you those. They fill you with hard knowledge, 1+1=2 kind of knowledge. There's always only one correct answer: the answer from the textbook, from the instructor, from the authority. No question is asked unless you forgot what you should have memorized.

I envy you, having the freedom to argue 1+1=0 and discover binary.

As Chinese, we've been taught to believe, to repeat, to bow down to seniors, teachers, authorities.

It's the way of life here.

It's also the reason I came to the US.

And yet, here we are.

"You cannot trust anything reported out of China."

"No use in trying to discuss this anyone from China. They are totally brainwashed."

Do you hear the racists in these words? Do you feel the rejection of listening, the denial of communication, the blockage of thinking in those expressions?

Chinese are liars. -- is what they want to say.

Because the west has free speech and free press, so everything the western media report must be the truth. -- is what they believe.

Folks, where is your doubt? Where is your wisdom of knowledge?

Just because Chinese people were taught to remember the only answer, doesn't mean they can't think critically. Have you ever listened to them? Are you dismissing them just because of where they were born or how they were taught?

Just because you have a free press, doesn't mean your media is unbiased. Who are their sponsors? What political spectrum do they stand for? Is it economically or politically beneficial to talk trash about China?

Now you have to ask: What's your defense for the CCP? How brainwashed are you? Do you condemn the CCP for what they alleged doing?

My answer is simple: I will stay doubtful until I have first-hand contact or undeniable evidence showing one way or the other. Until then, I can't say if those allegations are real or not. If they were real, I (and I believe most Chinese people) would condemn the practice, and would like to demand a change.

"I know people who live in Xinjiang and they say it's not that bad." -- It's a very common argument lot of Chinese people would use. Because it's relatively easy to find people living in Xinjiang or who come from Xinjiang online. Me too, had several conversations with folks from the area, some on Telegram where they were using VPN to connect, and some are friends of friends. Of course, we would talk about the headlines all over the western media. And every time, the answer I got is they are still working, living, studying as normal. There were conflicts in some areas in the southern part, but I haven't got any more detail than that.

These conversations are not proof of China not doing what it's been alleged to do. But you have to understand it's much more difficult to prove something you didn't do instead of something you did, and yet these kinds of personal encounters are the closest things we have to give us a perspective of the situation in the area.

To think back, what is the closest encounter you had to the situation in Xinjiang? Did you talk to any victim from the area? Of course, you would immediately argue that CCP wiped clean all witness and evidence, so finding a victim is almost impossible, which is another allegation that's almost impossible to prove otherwise --- how convenient of you.

But anyway, the closest encounter of yours is almost always the media stories you read, from western media, all over the places. But have you ever doubt that why all stories about China are negative? Why people are saying things to discredit every word comes out Chinese people's mouth? Doesn't it feel strange to you?

And it's not easy for someone to speak up for China either. I -- writing these words, am seriously worried about losing my job in the US just because of this. So I'm using an alias account. YouTubers that speaking up for China are constantly being depromoted, demonetized, restricted for sharing, or banned for their words. Is it free speech should look like? Is the west deliberately running some kind of campaign to discredit and disconnect China from the rest of the world?

Of course, that's an allegation without concrete proof. But you can find it is logically sound. There are many political movements and campaigns by the US and other five eye countries trying to contain the political and economical development of China - so their countries can continue to sit on top of the world's hegemony. It's not strange that these political and economical campaigns had affected public opinion and implanted negative views of China in its citizens' minds.

We can have a lot of allegations back and forth. Maybe they are all wrong - or all true. But the bottom line is, what kind of thinking you want to promote.

If you are spreading denial and racism, I would condemn you regardless if your arguments are true or not.

Please, don't let a Chinese person point out your fallacies. We were supposed to not learned that.

Re: Uighurs: 'Credible case' China carrying out genocide

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't nebulous. In China you and your family disappear if you criticize the CCP, even if you do so while overseas. Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed.

> Elsewhere you may speak your mind without fear of being locked up or killed. Like Assange did? https://cpj.org/reports/2020/12/record-number-journalists-ja... > This marks the fifth consecutive year that repressive governments have imprisoned at least 250 journalists. Lack of global leadership on democratic values – particularly from the United States, where President Donald Trump has inexhaustibly denigrated the p…

CPJ, based in New York. Such an organization would never be allowed to exist in China.

It is the likes of the CCP & Trump who would paint the world as black and white, i.e. you're either with me or against me. The rest of us acknowledge that press freedoms enable a spectrum of viewpoints.

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