Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

faculty.ucr.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

41–50 of 83 posts

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#41

Post by coldtea »

smitty1e wrote: post #19
mannykannot wrote: post #16

As a materialist, I am not particularly taken by this particular argument (which is not to say that I would summarily reject other arguments to the same end.) It's weakness, I think, is in the claim that the United States has all the types of properties that materialists tend to regard as characteristic of conscious beings. If you favor some form of panpsychism (especially in the form that, for example, regards build…

I guess whoever controls the definition can do the required gymnastics. However, even if we define "memory" in terms of artifacts like buildings and books, the place where these United States as such actually make decisions is unclear. Jokes about Congress aside, those chambers are comprised of 535 arguably sentient individuals, not a single hive mind driving the country.

>Jokes about Congress aside, those chambers are comprised of 535 arguably sentient individuals, not a single hive mind driving the country.

So? Sentient individuals could just as well play the role of neurons (or similar) in a larger groupping - where their own sentiousness (sic?) doesn't matter at that level, it's their collective output that matters...

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#42

Post by elindbe3 »

metalliqaz wrote: post #38
elindbe3 wrote: post #34

I think groups of people are conscious in a sense. When I say conscious I'll use a definition where consciousness is the behavior of a physical system that is: * directional/goal oriented * exhibits higher order patterns / behaviors which are greater than the sum of its parts. A riot would probably be the easiest example to start with. You get a group of mildly angry people together and they can become enraged and do…

I don't know what it means to define consciousness without self awareness. Sounds like just emergent behaviors.

A lot of animals (such as insects) aren't self aware. I still think they have some form of consciousness.

Emergent behaviors by themselves aren't goal-oriented.

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#43

Post by coldtea »

aimor wrote: post #24

I am not familiar with this topic, so of course there is something I don't understand: I don't understand how the United States is reasonably bounded for this example. I'm bounded by my body, which travels together. I can communicate with others, temporarily, but then we separate and I am again alone to some degree. The United States is always in communication with other countries, it is never alone, so what are its…

>I don't understand how the United States is reasonably bounded for this example. I'm bounded by my body, which travels together.

You are also comprised of billions of living cells (not to mention trillions (?) of other organisms like gut bacteria). And you're in constant interaction with your environment (e.g. inhaling more bacteria, oxygen, proteins, and so on). Cells also drop off you all the time.

Plus, doesn't America have borders? So, what if it interacts with other countries? You also interact with other people as you said...

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#44

Post by coldtea »

ramphastidae wrote: post #31

> If you’re a materialist, you probably think that rabbits are conscious. Can anyone explain this please? I don’t understand.

As a materialist, you don't require a "soul" to consider something conscious, much less so consider having one the unique province of humans.

So, with rabbits, their having brain matter makes them so.

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#45

Post by abellerose »

Complete utter nonsense. Humans are as conscious as the hands on a clock moving from the gears that control them. Yes, there's no reason for anyone to believe the electrons making the hands on a clock, aren't aware of forces interacting with them at any given moment and the same can be said about humans.

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#46

Post by baron_harkonnen »

> If you’re a materialist, you probably think that rabbits are conscious...

But only someone who is coming from a perspective outside of materialism would find this "consciousness" some magical property.

The conclusion that "the United States is probably conscious" is only interesting or shocking if you come from a perspective that human consciousness is some special thing to begin with.

From a materialist perspective the idea that essentially 'all complex systems share a lot in common, including what we would call "consciousness"' is sort of the point.

When you regard consciousness as not particularly more interesting than any other complex system, such as a tornado, because it is just a material process like any other, driven by the same forces as any other, then all of the wind is taken out of this argument.

Only someone who already objects to materialism would find this claim remotely interesting.

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#47

Post by grassmudhorse »

elindbe3 wrote: post #42
metalliqaz wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know what it means to define consciousness without self awareness. Sounds like just emergent behaviors.

A lot of animals (such as insects) aren't self aware. I still think they have some form of consciousness. Emergent behaviors by themselves aren't goal-oriented.

Or, from an insects perspective:

"The swarm doesn't think humans are swarm-aware. Swarm still thinks they have some form of consciousness"

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#48

Post by grassmudhorse »

metalliqaz wrote: post #38
elindbe3 wrote: post #34

I think groups of people are conscious in a sense. When I say conscious I'll use a definition where consciousness is the behavior of a physical system that is: * directional/goal oriented * exhibits higher order patterns / behaviors which are greater than the sum of its parts. A riot would probably be the easiest example to start with. You get a group of mildly angry people together and they can become enraged and do…

I don't know what it means to define consciousness without self awareness. Sounds like just emergent behaviors.

I don't know what it means to define self-awareness without consciousness. Sounds like just emergent behaviors.

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#49

Post by bohadi »

Jung made the more conservative claim that (US) entity is unconscious. [1] Like a baby in the womb.

If you subscribe to emergentist theory of mind or integrated information theory of consciousness [3][4], compared to what comes, still a dissolute level of being.

There is an argument of telos here. [4] I like to think of it as a cosmic historical process. Is it circular or linear? Maybe the geometric metaphors are lacking.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_unconscious

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergentism

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_information_theory

[4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument

(Also the frontispiece on Hobbes' Leviathan is great visual representation of this old idea.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_(Hobbes_book)

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#50

Post by mensetmanusman »

mannykannot wrote: post #16

As a materialist, I am not particularly taken by this particular argument (which is not to say that I would summarily reject other arguments to the same end.) It's weakness, I think, is in the claim that the United States has all the types of properties that materialists tend to regard as characteristic of conscious beings. If you favor some form of panpsychism (especially in the form that, for example, regards build…

If you’re a materialist, there is no reason to have hope, you’re just reacting to stimulus.
Post reply on HN