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If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

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Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#21

Post by asymptosis »

3np wrote: post #11
asymptosis wrote: post #5

The author has perhaps overlooked CAP theorem. Consciousness requires both consistency and high-availability, thus it can't arise in situations of partitioned networks. Brains (or, at least, most healthy brains) are unpartitioned. But any given community of brains is at best intermittently connected: I wave to my neighbour, then my neighbour disappears from sight. I call my parents on the phone, then the phonecall te…

Where do you get the idea that consistency is necessary? I certainly think it’s not.

I'm not talking about consciousness adhering to logical consistency (I think it actually requires completeness). I'm talking about all parts of a given mind needing to agree on what the current focus of attention is. Failure to have such agreement is a hallmark of dreaming, psychosis, or just having two separate brains.

How do you explain split-brain phenomena if consistency is not required? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-brain

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#22

Post by asymptosis »

rmdashrfstar wrote: post #14
asymptosis wrote: post #5

The author has perhaps overlooked CAP theorem. Consciousness requires both consistency and high-availability, thus it can't arise in situations of partitioned networks. Brains (or, at least, most healthy brains) are unpartitioned. But any given community of brains is at best intermittently connected: I wave to my neighbour, then my neighbour disappears from sight. I call my parents on the phone, then the phonecall te…

> Consciousness requires both consistency and high-availability, thus it can't arise in situations of partitioned networks. [Citation needed]

You'll figure it out eventually.

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#24

Post by aimor »

I am not familiar with this topic, so of course there is something I don't understand:

I don't understand how the United States is reasonably bounded for this example. I'm bounded by my body, which travels together. I can communicate with others, temporarily, but then we separate and I am again alone to some degree. The United States is always in communication with other countries, it is never alone, so what are its bounds? I like the idea very much (that the Earth is conscious for example, or a classroom of students) but I don't understand how the US makes sense here. Maybe that is the point, it being spatially distributed?

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#25

Post by yummypaint »

aimor wrote: post #24

I am not familiar with this topic, so of course there is something I don't understand: I don't understand how the United States is reasonably bounded for this example. I'm bounded by my body, which travels together. I can communicate with others, temporarily, but then we separate and I am again alone to some degree. The United States is always in communication with other countries, it is never alone, so what are its…

Maybe in the sense that an ant colony seems to behave like a single entity extending appendages to find food, do battle, propagate itself, etc

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#27

Post by frongpik »

aimor wrote: post #24

I am not familiar with this topic, so of course there is something I don't understand: I don't understand how the United States is reasonably bounded for this example. I'm bounded by my body, which travels together. I can communicate with others, temporarily, but then we separate and I am again alone to some degree. The United States is always in communication with other countries, it is never alone, so what are its…

Language and culture. The US citizens definitely have the us vs them mentality towards other countries, and so do intelligent beings realize this "me vs not me" concept. Perhaps when many small consciousnesses blend together in a certain way, a bigger consciousness emerges.

Re: If Materialism Is True, the United States Is Probably Conscious (2015)

#28

Post by mcguire »

mannykannot wrote: post #16

As a materialist, I am not particularly taken by this particular argument (which is not to say that I would summarily reject other arguments to the same end.) It's weakness, I think, is in the claim that the United States has all the types of properties that materialists tend to regard as characteristic of conscious beings. If you favor some form of panpsychism (especially in the form that, for example, regards build…

You have expressed my objections to this argument better than I can.

I have no particular a priori problems with the idea of a distributed consciousness---even for the US. But I find the evidence of conscious behavior in the article rather unconvincing. Is consciousness really the simplest explanation of its behavior?

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