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I moved to Singapore

sivers.org

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Re: I moved to Singapore

#51

Post by shmulkey18 »

iantimothy wrote: post #35
shmulkey18 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Different kinds of freedom". Whenever anyone says this, I get very nervous. It's pretty clear that these "different kinds" are not real freedom at all, and so don't include things like freedom of speech, the ability to truly determine who governs you, or even the freedom to water or not water the plants in front of your apartment (failing to do the latter in Singapore will result in a visit from the cops). Here's a…

Is an individual's freedom to do something more important than another individual's freedom from something? My country takes a rather paternalistic view on this but like I said, i am casually optimistic that things will change and we as a country are moving towards a more informed citizenry renegotiating the social compact between the govt and people and finding a balance in both positive and negative liberties. Edit…

In other words, you're OK with the state forbidding forms of political speech it finds undesirable. Nice. Banning "freedom to say certain stuff about the religion Islam" is censorship, pure and simple.

Read "Brave New World" and see if any of the things depicted there ring a bell.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#52

Post by jacobolus »

frossie wrote: post #17

The whole stay-abroad until you see "their" point of view is admirable. The flip side is that after that, you can never really go home. I mean obviously you can physically, but you give up your ability to fit in with your own people. This may or may not be a downside for you, but something to be aware of. Anyway, congratulations on your move. [edit in response to questions below: there is a big difference between liv…

> you give up your ability to fit in with your own people

This is both true and not true. I have spent something like a quarter of my total life (in 2-3 month chunks mostly) living in Mexico, and while I don’t feel like the “average” American, exactly, I always feel like I can really relax once I’m back in the US. Even though I feel mostly at home in Mexico, I always need to keep a bit on guard, gestures and inflections (not to mention cultural references) pass over my head, I have to stop and think about what I’m doing. In the US (and especially in Southern CA), I am just fluent in day-to-day life.

Anyway, it sounds like you have some personal experience with feeling separated from your home country/culture. Care to share?

Re: I moved to Singapore

#53

Post by eps »

true_religion wrote: post #48
vegai wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is anyone's freedom of speech violated if they're not allowed to litter?

You can't possess or view pornography---that's a violation of free speech. There's more. But the only positive that's trumpeted about singapore is that their streets are clean and their city beautiful. This is good for the tourist, but not necessarily a place you want to move to.

National Geographic ran a special on Singapore a year or so ago and one thing they described was a proliferation of thinly disguised "massage parlors" in malls. In a police state that Singapore is it basically means that these outlets are approved by the government, so the whole pornography issue is really quite multifaceted.

The same special described the general idea behind the chewing gum and jaywalking laws -- it is to whip citizens into the proper shape and to force them to behave decently. An extreme variation of the broken window theory if you will. And to top it off, there might be a government, but there is the father of the nation who, the man who developed the very idea of Singapore. He is in his 70s (?) and it is not clear how things will develop with his passing.

Any Singaporeans here care to comment on NG's take on Singapore? Curious to know how off it is.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#54

Post by kristofferR »

alnayyir wrote: post #29
kylec wrote: post #11

I'm surprised at his choice of location - Singapore is quite a nanny state, and the punishments are sometimes quite severe. "Singapore society is highly regulated through the criminalization of many activities which are considered as fairly harmless in other countries. These include failing to flush toilets after use, littering, jaywalking, the possession of pornography, and the sale of chewing gum." "Singapore has o…

Westerners who've never lived there and wouldn't be in any danger of suffering any of this "harsh" treatment love to complain about Singapore. Visit sometime with an open mind.

It's hard to visit with an open mind when you would risk several years in prison for doing what you would at home. Capital punishment is required for being in the company with someone possessing a small amount of weed. "Obscene material" gives you prison up to three months, 21 years if you make it avaliable to someone under 21. If you watch the movie Milk with someone under 21 years old, you risk 21 years in prison. All members of Jehovas Witnesses were imprisioned in 2004. Richard Dawkins would probably have been sentenced for long imprisonment without a trial.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#55

Post by kristofferR »

iantimothy wrote: post #35
shmulkey18 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Different kinds of freedom". Whenever anyone says this, I get very nervous. It's pretty clear that these "different kinds" are not real freedom at all, and so don't include things like freedom of speech, the ability to truly determine who governs you, or even the freedom to water or not water the plants in front of your apartment (failing to do the latter in Singapore will result in a visit from the cops). Here's a…

Is an individual's freedom to do something more important than another individual's freedom from something? My country takes a rather paternalistic view on this but like I said, i am casually optimistic that things will change and we as a country are moving towards a more informed citizenry renegotiating the social compact between the govt and people and finding a balance in both positive and negative liberties. Edit…

Yeah right. Tell that to all the members of Jehova's Witnesses, who were imprisoned in 2004 for having the wrong religion.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#56

Post by seymores »

sivers wrote: post #6
seymores wrote: post #4

Wow, where do you hang out?

Home. Working. I prefer solitude. I don't hang out much. http://www.tagbento.com/243/dereks-desk

Well, you should check out the meetup scene, lots of them almost on weekly basis. Love to bump into you in one of those meetups.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#57

Post by louislouis »

sivers wrote: post #6
seymores wrote: post #4

Wow, where do you hang out?

Home. Working. I prefer solitude. I don't hang out much. http://www.tagbento.com/243/dereks-desk

How the hell can u work like that for a number of hours at a time? The weight of the laptop on your legs, not to mention the heat from the fan must make it bearable for only a short time. A desk/table for minimum requirement surely.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#58

Post by astrec »

keyle wrote: post #44
phlux wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to manage a team in Singapore when with Lockheed and would go there regularly. It is one of my favorite cities on the planet. I took a sabbatical in 2000/2001 for six months and backpacked through asia - I spent 2 months in singapore then as well. The laws and strictness of the place is greatly exaggerated from my perspective -- if your not doing crazy stuff, you have nothing to worry about. The city is AMAZIN…

I've visited Singapore twice. I've settled in Australia, originally from Europe. I was really worried when I visited Singapore and took their 'tourist' tour. They put you in a bus, drive you around all jetlagged and give you orange juice on the beach. Completely surreal. What really put me off was their unconditional love for their government. The woman 'tour guide' in the bus just couldn't stop thanking the governme…

Australians have no constitutional right to free speech, and some forms of speech are expressly criminalised via the sedition and various vilification acts.

The only form of speech that enjoys some protection is political speech. So whilst Australian's can freely talk crap about the government, Australia is far from a beacon of free speech.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#59

Post by jwwest »

shmulkey18 wrote: post #51
iantimothy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is an individual's freedom to do something more important than another individual's freedom from something? My country takes a rather paternalistic view on this but like I said, i am casually optimistic that things will change and we as a country are moving towards a more informed citizenry renegotiating the social compact between the govt and people and finding a balance in both positive and negative liberties. Edit…

In other words, you're OK with the state forbidding forms of political speech it finds undesirable. Nice. Banning "freedom to say certain stuff about the religion Islam" is censorship, pure and simple. Read "Brave New World" and see if any of the things depicted there ring a bell.

I think the point of BNW was that there was no censorship, but rather the population just didn't care.

Re: I moved to Singapore

#60

Post by jasonkester »

"we took one carry-on bag each, and went around the world"

Reading that just makes me smile. Well done.

So many people say they want to do exactly that. So few do it.

Of the people who don't do it, so many regret not having done it. Of the people who have, I've never met a single one who regretted it.

I hope your story serves as inspiration for somebody here to pack that little carry-on and book himself a one-way flight.

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