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Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

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Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#11
post #2

I think that something like http://us.metamath.org/index.html has already gone a long way in formalizing math. And this is not the only attempt to formalize math, but it is unique that it uses a very limited amount of syntax and rules, and makes use of a simple (small) proof engine, which makes verifying that the proof engine is correct possible.

The problem with metamath is that you basically have to be a fully signed-up masochist in order to do anything nontrivial with it. People have certainly done nontrivial things with it e.g Carneiro and the prime number theorem -- but it takes all sorts. If I want to prove (a+b)(a+2b)(a+3b)= a^3 + 6ba^2 + 11b^2a + 6b^3 in Lean I just type `ring`. Good luck proving that from the axioms of a ring directly in metamath, I challenge you to do it in fewer than 30 moves. I should also say that whilst Metamath has certainly formalised a whole bunch of mathematics, it has not remotely gone "a long way" by any reasonable measure which a mathematician would use. For example, how much of an undergraduate mathematics curriculum does it have? How much representation theory? None. How much differential geometry? None. How much commutative algebra? Epsilon. These are the measures which mathematicians use, not lines of code. It is time that formalisation started to appeal to mathematicians, and for this to happen it is essential that it starts to demonstrate that it can actually do a lot of the kind of mathematics which is recognised as "completely standard undergraduate material and hence trivial" by mathematicians. It is still the case that these systems cannot do certain things which were known to Gauss or Euler (for example it was only this year that Lean learnt the proof that the class group of an imaginary quadratic field was finite, and as far as I know no other system at all has class groups -- but we teach this to the undergraduates!). Just saying "large code base therefore we've gone a long way" is not the correct logic. The question is how much of it is recognisable as worth teaching to undergraduates in 2021, and conversely how much stuff worth teaching to undergraduates in 2021 is _not_ in any of these systems. That's where the problems begin to show up. In Lean we are well into a project of formalising an entire undergraduate curriculum and within about two years we will have finished.

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#12
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just pick a different one! There are definitely formalisation efforts out there that use constructive mathematics; for example Coq is so called after the logic, the calculus of constructions, that it uses ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_of_constructions ).

Hi! Yes! Just pick a different one! The problem is that constructivists have been formalising mathematics for decades and have not really managed to break through into the mainstream mathematical community with their efforts. The difference with Lean's maths library is that we absolutely reject constructivism, which makes Lean far less suitable for certain kinds of computations but conversely far far better equipped…

The Four Colour Theorem in Coq seems pretty mainstream I'd say... Also I guess you know that you don't personally have to reject LEM to use Agda or whatever, you just can't do everything in it or at least everything the classical way.

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#13
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just pick a different one! There are definitely formalisation efforts out there that use constructive mathematics; for example Coq is so called after the logic, the calculus of constructions, that it uses ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_of_constructions ).

Hi! Yes! Just pick a different one! The problem is that constructivists have been formalising mathematics for decades and have not really managed to break through into the mainstream mathematical community with their efforts. The difference with Lean's maths library is that we absolutely reject constructivism, which makes Lean far less suitable for certain kinds of computations but conversely far far better equipped…

> resolutely non-classical approach

Calling this 'non-classical' is interesting—it's definitely non-classical from the point of view of formalisation, but I'm not sure formalisation has been around long enough to have classics ….

As of course you know but non-mathematicians may not, from a non-formalising mathematician's point of view, it's the non-constructive logic that's classical, to the extent that it's actually sometimes called classical logic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_logic).

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#14
post #8

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Wrong thread?

No, it's probably just a good idea to remind people of this feat, similarly to the legendary wrestling match in nineteen ninety-eight when The Undertaker threw Mankind off Hell In A Cell and plummeted 16 ft through an announcer's table.

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! Yes! Just pick a different one! The problem is that constructivists have been formalising mathematics for decades and have not really managed to break through into the mainstream mathematical community with their efforts. The difference with Lean's maths library is that we absolutely reject constructivism, which makes Lean far less suitable for certain kinds of computations but conversely far far better equipped…

The Four Colour Theorem in Coq seems pretty mainstream I'd say... Also I guess you know that you don't personally have to reject LEM to use Agda or whatever, you just can't do everything in it or at least everything the classical way.

This is a milestone result, and its formalisation taught us many things, for example that the systems are capable of handling long proofs about elementary objects.

However finite graph theory is not remotely mainstream mathematics. Take your favourite super-prestigious maths prize, for example the Abel Prize or the Fields Medal. Now look at everyone who has won this prize in the last 10 years. That is the definition of mainstream mathematics. And as you will see if you do this, the areas which these people are working on are a million miles away from finite graph theory. This is precisely the problem. Computer scientists sometimes have a very twisted view of exactly what kind of mathematics is regarded as important in 2021. The experiment I outline above will give you some idea of what is mainstream, and believe me, it's not the four colour theorem.

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#16

I wish these attempts were using constructive mathematics but I understand that that would turn away a lot of mathematicians.

AIUI, the Lean system does support constructive mathematics. You can add axioms and reasoning principles that make the system non-constructive, but they're entirely optional.

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#17
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! Yes! Just pick a different one! The problem is that constructivists have been formalising mathematics for decades and have not really managed to break through into the mainstream mathematical community with their efforts. The difference with Lean's maths library is that we absolutely reject constructivism, which makes Lean far less suitable for certain kinds of computations but conversely far far better equipped…

> resolutely non-classical approach Calling this 'non-classical' is interesting—it's definitely non-classical from the point of view of formalisation, but I'm not sure formalisation has been around long enough to have classics …. As of course you know but non-mathematicians may not, from a non-formalising mathematician's point of view, it's the non-constructive logic that's classical, to the extent that it's actually…

:-) Yes, by assuming classical logic the Lean community is taking a non-classical approach to bringing formalisation to the masses :-)

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#18
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just pick a different one! There are definitely formalisation efforts out there that use constructive mathematics; for example Coq is so called after the logic, the calculus of constructions, that it uses ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_of_constructions ).

Hi! Yes! Just pick a different one! The problem is that constructivists have been formalising mathematics for decades and have not really managed to break through into the mainstream mathematical community with their efforts. The difference with Lean's maths library is that we absolutely reject constructivism, which makes Lean far less suitable for certain kinds of computations but conversely far far better equipped…

Dear Kevin,

I am working on some hobby projects, similar but very much more elementary to what you are doing. May I please kindly get your e-mail address (or you may drop me a note at ashok dot khanna at hotmail dot com). I would love to connect and follow your work.

I apologise as I was not able to find your e-mail address on your blog post - sorry if I missed it.

Best wishes,

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Four Colour Theorem in Coq seems pretty mainstream I'd say... Also I guess you know that you don't personally have to reject LEM to use Agda or whatever, you just can't do everything in it or at least everything the classical way.

This is a milestone result, and its formalisation taught us many things, for example that the systems are capable of handling long proofs about elementary objects. However finite graph theory is not remotely mainstream mathematics. Take your favourite super-prestigious maths prize, for example the Abel Prize or the Fields Medal. Now look at everyone who has won this prize in the last 10 years. That is the definition…

I suppose it's not exactly mainstream, but Kronheimer and Mrowka are among those trying to prove the four color theorem using instanton homology and gauge theory. It's certainly not finite graph theory, though (their idea of a 3-regular graph is the singular locus of a certain kind of orbifold!)

Re: Formalising Mathematics: An Introduction

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Four Colour Theorem in Coq seems pretty mainstream I'd say... Also I guess you know that you don't personally have to reject LEM to use Agda or whatever, you just can't do everything in it or at least everything the classical way.

This is a milestone result, and its formalisation taught us many things, for example that the systems are capable of handling long proofs about elementary objects. However finite graph theory is not remotely mainstream mathematics. Take your favourite super-prestigious maths prize, for example the Abel Prize or the Fields Medal. Now look at everyone who has won this prize in the last 10 years. That is the definition…

Finite graph theory is completely mainstream mathematics. There's a kind of elite provicialism that you sometimes see, where only the mathematics that's done at Harvard or wins the big prizes counts, and this is a good example. There are probably more people employed in math departments working on finite graph theory than there are working on the Langlands Program. Robertson and Seymour were too old to be eligible, but the fact that someone like them could never win the Fields Medal, while someone in other fields could, is a statement about who is well-connected with the prize committee, and not a general statement about mathematics.

And I say this as someone with no interest in graph theory, or combinatorics in general.

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