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Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

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Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#181

Post by austincheney »

Osiris wrote: post #35
mrDmrTmrJ wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I reach a very different conclusion. Comparing ERCOT to other grids (PJM or CALISO), ERCOT system has delivered very low prices and very high levels of renewable penetrations. PJM wastes billions of dollars a year in capacity payments to coal plants for no reason. What you write, "The market in power should only exist to optimise" well, that is exactly what ERCOT does. As for the disaster last week, that wa…

If the market solves all problems why would the government even need to mandate winterization? Wouldn't smart businesses have done the risk analysis and done the work? Maybe the problem here is that loss of electrical power has a significant external cost that isn't absorbed by the utilities. In other words, the cost of winterization was more than the cost to fix the damage to their equipment but doesn't take into ac…

> Wouldn't smart businesses have done the risk analysis and done the work?

That is complicated. How do you validate costly infrastructure changes that are only testable or necessary once about every 10 to 20 years? Proving winterization for Canada or Wisconsin weather is challenging if you rarely have Canadian weather extremes.

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#182

Post by ceejayoz »

Camillo wrote: post #136
Osiris wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the market solves all problems why would the government even need to mandate winterization? Wouldn't smart businesses have done the risk analysis and done the work? Maybe the problem here is that loss of electrical power has a significant external cost that isn't absorbed by the utilities. In other words, the cost of winterization was more than the cost to fix the damage to their equipment but doesn't take into ac…

> If the market solves all problems why would the government even need to mandate winterization? But Texas has a government and it _hadn't_ mandated winterization. So it doesn't seem to have done better than the market in practice.

The party controlling Texas’s government openly opposes the use of government to solve issues like this.

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#183

Post by CraigJPerry »

austincheney wrote: post #181
Osiris wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the market solves all problems why would the government even need to mandate winterization? Wouldn't smart businesses have done the risk analysis and done the work? Maybe the problem here is that loss of electrical power has a significant external cost that isn't absorbed by the utilities. In other words, the cost of winterization was more than the cost to fix the damage to their equipment but doesn't take into ac…

> Wouldn't smart businesses have done the risk analysis and done the work? That is complicated. How do you validate costly infrastructure changes that are only testable or necessary once about every 10 to 20 years? Proving winterization for Canada or Wisconsin weather is challenging if you rarely have Canadian weather extremes.

I suspect the parent is fully cognisant of this. They are illuminating one of the fallacies of the free market extremists.

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#184

Post by iso1210 »

makomk wrote: post #178
iso1210 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's why the UK has external sources - both inteconnects with other grids, and stored power - that can be brought up in seconds. My understanding is Texas doesn't even have connections to other grids? Historically the UK had "economy 7" usage, where domestic electricity was cheaper at night. It's not convenient, it stems back from the end of the socialist era of the 70s where individuals took a backseat to the good…

Texas has DC ties to other grids, much like the UK does. The UK also has its own independent grid that isn't synchronized with anyone else, much like Texas (though smaller-scale because UK industry is basically dead and we generally use gas for heating).

In which case they can export electricity at a very low cost. Or are the interconnects full? And all the energy storage facilities full?

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#185

Post by roenxi »

mrDmrTmrJ wrote: post #54
Osiris wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the market solves all problems why would the government even need to mandate winterization? Wouldn't smart businesses have done the risk analysis and done the work? Maybe the problem here is that loss of electrical power has a significant external cost that isn't absorbed by the utilities. In other words, the cost of winterization was more than the cost to fix the damage to their equipment but doesn't take into ac…

Strongly agree. Free markets often fail to adopt low cost protections to tail events. E.g. the free market didn't get us 100% of new cars having seatbelts and airbags, government requirements did. And those standards were fought by the car manufacturers. My point is we need regulations to mandate our energy system to be resilient to outlier events (heat/cold/flooding/high wind etc.) and that's a government function s…

What if I've got a prepper bent and am OK with losing power for a few days in a 1:100 year event? Can I still get cheap, slightly unreliable power?

Not to make light of the events in Texas - it sounds scary and they need to be prepared for next time. But the answer isn't automatically "they should have had a gold plated the grid!". The answer might be "they should be have been prepared for a few days without power in extreme conditions".

Every new 9 gets added to 99.9...% reliability figure costs a lot more than the 9 before. At some point, it is more effective for rare events to be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#187

Post by ratsforhorses »

sep_field wrote: post #119
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's completely defeating the purpose of the price signal, which is to cause whoever is the most price sensitive to cut usage. By charging less to the people who are most price sensitive, the average price charged in order to deter usage would have to increase dramatically. It also creates ridiculous perverse incentives where people with little money waste electricity in the midst of a shortage because they're not…

You are right it creates perverse incentives, but so does the current system. For instance check this article [0] that shows pictures of Houston's skyline during the recent power outages where completely empty skyscrapers are wasting power while ordinary people freeze. I'd rather have poor people using electricity than rich corporations. At least keeping people warm is productive. [0] https://heavy.com/news/photos-ho…

I agree with your idea of charging more for higher earners, much like is some northern European countries fines are proportional to income... the photo linked is eye opening, I'd suggest in extreme weather cases like this, corporations should be charged more depending on how many employees/income/profit. Indeed if capitalism is meant to help create a fairer more innovative/dynamic society Corporations shouldn't be represented legally on the same status (as they are in the U.S.) as people...

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#188

Post by baq »

godmode2019 wrote: post #73
mrDmrTmrJ wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Godmode2019, I suspect we're strongly agreeing. My point is that Texas didn't assume the 'weather' would ever be bad. So when it got cold they ran out of natural gas to run their electricity system. The reason I bring up methane is that's the raw fuel they need to power their generators. And my proposed solution is to require the energy infrastructure (here the natural gas infrastructure, which is required to power t…

I didn't mean to be negative. I just get bothered when see co2 makes things cold, its almost absurdist joke ie the one thing to nullify a hypothesis is now incorporated into the hypothesis to strength the argument. I don't know anything about Texans, I don't even live in America but American politics trickle down

Don’t confuse climate with weather

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#189

Post by baybal2 »

baybal2 wrote: post #186

Access Denied Error 16 www.ercot.com 2021-02-21 13:10:47 UTC If you believe you have a valid business reason for accessing ERCOT resources, please contact the ERCOT HelpDesk at 512-248-6800 or 1-866-870-8124 (USA) or HelpDesk@ercot.com. Imperva

Did we DDOS them?

Re: Clearing price for supplying power to Texas grid –$31.65

#190

Post by gigatexal »

baybal2 wrote: post #189
baybal2 wrote: post #186

Access Denied Error 16 www.ercot.com 2021-02-21 13:10:47 UTC If you believe you have a valid business reason for accessing ERCOT resources, please contact the ERCOT HelpDesk at 512-248-6800 or 1-866-870-8124 (USA) or HelpDesk@ercot.com. Imperva

Did we DDOS them?

Likely no. I used a VPN to connect from a Texas server and was able to see the page no problem. Could be a GDPR thing but I didn’t see a cookie popup, so I dunno.
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