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Vertical farming does not save space

lowtechmagazine.com

451–460 of 464 posts

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you collect the rain coming down, someone downstream ends up with no water. Water is not free.

Not really, since other than the small amount of water that gets shipped out in the plant, the rest is just released right back out. Besides, as long as you're only collecting the water that falls directly on you as rain, you're not taking any more than your lot; someone 'downstream' can also collect water that falls directly on them.

That's great if the entire river system is continually receiving decent amounts of rain. In most real world scenarios there's a rain-rich area in the top of the watershed, then a less rain-rich but flood-prone area, then a bit more rain closer to the seashore, then the river delta.

In Australia for example there's a practise of "flood water harvesting" where you build large earth walls along your property boundary, and collect all the water that falls on your land. Combined with irrigation downstream this means the river dries up in the space of a hundred kilometres.

There's very little water released back into the river, since that's basically wasting water as far as the agriculture industry is concerned.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> GameStop has lost over $30 billion from its peak valuation. This isn't how market cap works.

I know what market cap is, and that they didn't really have the opportunity to sell the company for that much, but it still provides a sense of scale.

A very misleading one.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That map isn't particularly meaningful. Sure, stuff is being built technically. But as far as I know, the main places where it's being done for real are China and India. The UK for instance has one powerplant actually in construction and it already got a bad rap because it's a bad deal economically. Besides that, I think you're missing my point. My point is that you have to deal with reality, and reality doesn't real…

> If you simply impose a carbon tax, private enterprise will just go and build solar. Depends on how high the carbon tax is. Put it at a high enough rate that the country needs to go 100% carbon-free and people will build nuclear because that's the only solution (besides geographically limited things like geothermal and hydro) that can feasibly bring carbon emissions to zero. Renewables are cheap when going from a mo…

I think you're still missing what I'm saying. Yes, running a grid 100% on renewables is probably extremely difficult. Yes, nuclear may be the optimal way forward today. But I still think the most likely outcome is the renewable grid anyway.

Why? Because there's no "we". There's no central planning. What there is is a bunch of self-interested parties that don't care about the entirety of the problem. Everybody will go with what makes the most sense to them, the result will be suboptimal, and then once things go wrong the country will have to fix the problems somehow.

Your plan may make sense in China where the government can indeed implement a central plan, costs and opinions be damned. But it seems extremely unlikely to happen in most western democracies because the politics won't support it.

"Yeah, that's why there's no plan to actually decarbonize with renewables."

What I'm trying to say is that there's no global plan whatsoever. In most countries we don't have the ability to implement any kind of comprehensive central policy. We have multiple parties that can nudge things in one direction or another but none of which has full control over what happens.

"Pass a carbon tax such that building a nuclear plant is less expensive than running solar during the day and natural gas at night."

But the problem is that there's no single party in charge of solving that problem. You pass a carbon tax. Fossil fuels die. Companies will build solar, because it makes them money. Companies won't build nuclear because it's expensive to build and solar is eating their lunch. The powerplant building company cares nothing about the economics of keeping the country powered 24/7, they care about the economics of building their plant. If their business model works okay while selling nothing at night, then it works, and that's that.

Then we'll get blackouts at night, solar companies will shrug "not our problem", and the government will have to scramble to find a solution.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#454

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you simply impose a carbon tax, private enterprise will just go and build solar. Depends on how high the carbon tax is. Put it at a high enough rate that the country needs to go 100% carbon-free and people will build nuclear because that's the only solution (besides geographically limited things like geothermal and hydro) that can feasibly bring carbon emissions to zero. Renewables are cheap when going from a mo…

I think you're still missing what I'm saying. Yes, running a grid 100% on renewables is probably extremely difficult. Yes, nuclear may be the optimal way forward today. But I still think the most likely outcome is the renewable grid anyway. Why? Because there's no "we". There's no central planning. What there is is a bunch of self-interested parties that don't care about the entirety of the problem. Everybody will go…

I think COVID-19 has shown that most countries with multi party systems can implement comprehensive policies centrally.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're still missing what I'm saying. Yes, running a grid 100% on renewables is probably extremely difficult. Yes, nuclear may be the optimal way forward today. But I still think the most likely outcome is the renewable grid anyway. Why? Because there's no "we". There's no central planning. What there is is a bunch of self-interested parties that don't care about the entirety of the problem. Everybody will go…

I think COVID-19 has shown that most countries with multi party systems can implement comprehensive policies centrally.

That's an interesting counter-argument but I don't think it works very well. In fact that's pretty much how I expect things with nuclear to go.

Where you have strong central government control -- there you can have comprehensive plans. Where you don't, you can't.

Which is why Covid-19 is a clusterfuck in the US -- because the US doesn't have strong enough central control (and heck, Trump didn't care anyway). Even with Biden at the helm his power is limited and he has to convince the various states to act, and Congress hangs in a very delicate balance.

Also, the fact that a country can do one thing doesn't mean it necessarily can do another. That you have centralized healthcare and can command a country-wide response to covid-19 doesn't mean you have centralized power generation and can command a country-wide decarbonization.

Sure, things can be restructured, laws can be passed, power generation can be nationalized, but none of that is quick nor easy and by no means guaranteed to happen even if it would result in the best outcomes.

Plus as far as the public is concerned, covid-19 is a lot more understandable and immediate of a concern. Climate change is more of a vague and slow moving threat, and that makes it much harder to do dramatic things in response.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Musk somehow got a bunch of those right. Not as complex, but still filled with unknowns.

My gut tells me that fusion power is better analogized to a space elevator than reusable rockets. But you're suggesting what I already alluded to as a reason for doubting that economic fusion power will ever happen - he's the type of person who would be pursuing fusion if it seemed feasible. It's not that he's the only one, or that he knows about nuclear physics, but it's the sort of risk he would plausibly take if h…

I'm not a huge SpaceX watcher, but I suspect it's harder to build electric cars than rockets. Yes, rockets are crazy expensive and time consuming but the fundamental principles are relatively understood.

https://qz.com/1244768/why-are-electric-cars-so-much-harder-...

Tesla's continual hitting of projected targets is much more impressive to me.

You're generally right though: the maturity, risk, and timelines of fusion are much greater than either of these. Better suited to long-term gov't/military spending.

But the general principle applies. Everything is measurable and can be modeled with a predictive distribution. The more unknowns, the more variable the distribution is.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Even fossil fuels contain far more nuclear energy than chemical energy so the engines we use are ~0% efficient if you actually count that as part of the input, even though we could, in principle, build an engine which does use it. How then do you compare two different nuclear fuels for efficiency?

You don't compare them for efficiency. That's a useless thing to do. You compare for other metrics that actually matter, like cost.

I know. It was just a rhetorical question to further show the unhelpfulness of efficiency.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've read that paper, I didn't realize the comment was referring to that. > If this is the case it would be a motivation that is fundamentally very different than that of a multijunction solar cell. Solar cells are designed by humans with human motivations, and plants are "designed" by evolutionary processes which lack motivation entirely. Yet, in spite of this, there are astonishing similarities between the limitati…

I don’t see any meaningful similarities beyond ‘they absorb light at more than one frequency’. It doesn’t seem particularly fascinating to me; it’s patently obvious that if you absorb at two frequencies you should absorb at two different frequencies.

> I don’t see any meaningful similarities beyond ‘they absorb light at more than one frequency’.

Ah, that's definitely not what I'm talking about. Look at the relationship between efficiency and wavelength for plants and photovoltaics... the similarity is clear.

Both photovoltaics and plants are capable of absorbing specific amounts of energy from incoming photons but not other amounts. Any excess energy becomes waste heat. The reason is because in both systems, the incoming light is used to move electrons from one state to another; the energy required to do this must usually come from one photon.

Not all solar power systems work this way.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, pumped storage is not feasible. It's both geographically limited, and it's not available at the appropriate scale. Estimates for how much storage would be necessary for renewables to work range from 12 hours to weeks of storage depending on the solar and wind mix. The US has ~25GWh of hydroelectric storage. There are no active hydroelectric storage projects at the moment, only proposals [1]. This is why proposals…

Pumped THERMAL storage. This is not pumped hydro. Rather, it involves a heat pump, for example compressing argon near-adiabatically, transferring the heat to a hot store (cooling the argon in the process), then expanding the argon back to the starting pressure. The argon is now around at mildly cryogenic temperature, and the cold is transferred to a cold store (liquid hexane, perhaps). To recover energy, this is reve…

Right and who can I call to install 1 GWh of thermal storage? I can't, because this technology only exists in prototypes. The only actual use of thermal storage is in solar thermal energy, which hasn't experienced the massive drop in price that photovoltaic solar has.

Re: Vertical farming does not save space

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah you and I could built a simple pulley system and store gravitational potential energy. Physics works, I know I'm not surprised. But we couldn't use it to store moderately enough energy to be useable to decarbonize our energy footprint. And building them at scale is a gamble on unprecedented application of technology. It's like trying to be carbon neutral through burning biomass. Yeah, it works as a general princ…

Biomass has low energy density, but that has nothing to do with non-biomass renewable sources, or with storage. The implication that the low density of biomass carries over is a deception. The argument that nothing that hasn't been commercialized can be considered is a double standard. Nuclear on the scale needed to replace fossil fuels is also currently impossible. The infrastructure to build it isn't there, and the…

> Biomass has low energy density, but that has nothing to do with non-biomass renewable sources, or with storage. The implication that the low density of biomass carries over is a deception.

No, it's not deception. Both solar and wind suffer from low energy density, especially as compared to nuclear. 200 Watts per square meter isn't all that good energy density.

> Nuclear on the scale needed to replace fossil fuels is also currently impossible.

Again, France just mysteriously doesn't exist in the alternate reality that hardcore renewable supporters live in. Globally, nuclear generates more than solar and wind combined.

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