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OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

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Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#71

Post by zepto »

linuxhansl wrote: post #45
alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

I'm not sure I understand what Apple contributed here. It's not supported, helped, or encouraged by Apple. And Apple does not document their H/W in ways that allow reuse. Hence these are all reverse engineering projects. Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc. Personally I happen to not like it, but it's a choice folks have to make by themselves. I buy my H/W fro…

> Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc.

This is just false.

iOS is a walled garden. The Mac is not by anyone’s definition.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#72

Post by ogre_codes »

linuxhansl wrote: post #45
alsetmusic wrote: post #4

So much for the many remarks made on HN claiming that Apple would use the M1 to further exert control over users’ ability to boot an alternative OS. Between this and Asahi Linux, I’d say things are off to a good start. Btw, Asahi has a Patreon page for anyone who wants to contribute. I’m tossing twelve bucks a month and recommend any Mac users with interest in booting alternative OSes support such projects. Now I’m g…

I'm not sure I understand what Apple contributed here. It's not supported, helped, or encouraged by Apple. And Apple does not document their H/W in ways that allow reuse. Hence these are all reverse engineering projects. Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc. Personally I happen to not like it, but it's a choice folks have to make by themselves. I buy my H/W fro…

> Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem.

iOS is a walled garden. (as are it's cousins for Apple TV, & HomePod.

MacOS is not.

If MacOS was a walled garden, I wouldn't be able to do my job with it.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#74

Post by ogre_codes »

zepto wrote: post #71
linuxhansl wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what Apple contributed here. It's not supported, helped, or encouraged by Apple. And Apple does not document their H/W in ways that allow reuse. Hence these are all reverse engineering projects. Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc. Personally I happen to not like it, but it's a choice folks have to make by themselves. I buy my H/W fro…

> Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc. This is just false. iOS is a walled garden. The Mac is not by anyone’s definition.

> The Mac is not by anyone’s definition.

Seems to me like a whole lot of arguments about Apple involve changing accepted definitions of things or using different standards for Apple versus others.

Apple does enough things wrong and I'm perfectly willing to accept those things and understand when people are frustrated by those things. No need to invent whole new things or shift definitions just so you can complain about them.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#75

Post by austinshea »

rgovostes wrote: post #51

Running an alternative OS "natively" on a Mac doesn't seem very appealing to me. It's almost guaranteed you will never fully get Wi-Fi, audio, graphics acceleration, the trackpad, etc. working flawlessly, especially on the M1 where almost every component is Apple proprietary and it's not a matter of loading, say, some common Intel graphics driver. On the other hand, virtualization _already_ lets you run whatever arm6…

But, presumably, you can understand why it is very appealing to others.

These devices are mass produced, and have long lifespans.

It's a good target for development.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#76

Post by Wowfunhappy »

saagarjha wrote: post #40
xiphias2 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple needs open source hackers to port all open source software to M1 chips for free before locking them more down. To be honest I just ordered my first MacBook Pro as well, so I guess I’m part of the ,,problem’’

That makes very little sense. What does Apple get out of letting people run Linux and OpenBSD, then preventing it?

...to play devil's advocate a bit (because I really do agree with you), I could have asked the same question about Linux on the PS3, and we all know how that ended.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#77

Post by zepto »

ogre_codes wrote: post #74
zepto wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Apple _is_ a walled garden ecosystem. That has many obvious advantages, things just work, etc. This is just false. iOS is a walled garden. The Mac is not by anyone’s definition.

> The Mac is not by anyone’s definition. Seems to me like a whole lot of arguments about Apple involve changing accepted definitions of things or using different standards for Apple versus others. Apple does enough things wrong and I'm perfectly willing to accept those things and understand when people are frustrated by those things. No need to invent whole new things or shift definitions just so you can complain abo…

> No need to invent whole new things or shift definitions just so you can complain about them.

Since I agree with you, I assume this is aimed at the comment I’m responding to it, and those like it, rather than me.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#78

Post by ogre_codes »

TheRealSteel wrote: post #68
ogre_codes wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are quoting a reddit comment which mis-interpreted what Federighi said. They didn't say they would prevent alternative operating systems from booting, only that they aren't doing it . As opposed to the fact that they are in fact helping get Linux running in the hypervisor and actually demoed Linux running in a VM before it was public. Apple documented how people could boot alternative operating systems.

I reiterate that I believe it was a reasonable interpretation of what Apple said.

While I can understand interpreting what he said as you did, I did at the time. There are facts on the ground which illustrate quite clearly that they do in fact allow alternative OSs.

I suspect Federighi chose his words carefully and deliberately. The alternative is they changed their approach. Regardless, documentation and code don't lie, nor do they contradict him in any way.

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#79

Post by comex »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #10
asveikau wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair that wasn't the only type of knee jerk negative reaction here on this topic. IIRC there was another, more Apple-fan style commentary of "a free OS will never run on this bespoke Apple product, and shouldn't". I for one am glad people are making progress.

Like djrogers, I can't honestly say that I've seen a comment like that. I recall ones more like "I'm not interested in running another OS on my Mac" and "if you wanted to run Linux, why would you buy a Mac," but those really aren't the same sentiment.

A comment like that is now the top comment in the thread :)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26210875

Re: OpenBSD boots multi-user on Apple M1 hardware

#80

Post by mjg59 »

saagarjha wrote: post #39
mjg59 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the point the hardware shipped, it was impossible to boot non-Apple operating systems on M1 systems. Post-release updates added this, but Apple had not publicly committed to doing so before that.

Apple committed to this during WWDC, when they mentioned that they would have an option to dial the boot security back.

WWDC included discussion of "Reduced security" mode, which allows downgrading to old signed versions of MacOS, but I don't remember any disclosure of plans to permit arbitrary operating systems at that point - do you have a pointer?

Edit: The transcript at https://developer.apple.com/videos/play/wwdc2020/10686/ discusses reduced security, but doesn't say anything about booting arbitrary code.

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