New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency • Hacker News Board

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#21

Post by lofi_lory » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:31 PM UTC

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #14

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #7

Plastic recycling seems heavily motivated by emotion and virtue signaling. In reality, only about 5% of our crude oil use goes towards plastic. If we rolled out EVs, and then just burned all the plastic trash (using waste-to-energy plants), we would still be far ahead. The biggest challenges with plastics are hormone disruption, and microplastics (particularly in the 3rd world without sufficient landfill or W2E infra…

Plastic disposal is a clear example of the failure of current economics. It's clearly bad for the environment and has long term costs, but there basically isn't any way economics to calculate that or incent it to not be done. So IMO, recycling is an exploratory exercise in seeing if we can socially engineer behavior that is "better". The cynic would say "it doesn't", but I could argue civilization is built on short t…

I think the best use would be not microparticle-shedding plastics made from fast growing plants, deposited in the ground as carbon sinks. Something degradable, but not in anaerobic conditions.

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#22

Post by hntrader » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:37 PM UTC

orev wrote: post #16

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic disposal is a clear example of the failure of current economics. It's clearly bad for the environment and has long term costs, but there basically isn't any way economics to calculate that or incent it to not be done. So IMO, recycling is an exploratory exercise in seeing if we can socially engineer behavior that is "better". The cynic would say "it doesn't", but I could argue civilization is built on short t…

There definitely is a way to deal with this in economics: taxes. If you tax the companies making the plastics, the price will go up, and they have an incentive to do things differently. Taxes are a crucial pillar of even a purely capitalist society, it’s just that they are not easy to implement politically.

Pigovian taxes are my favourite response to environmental damage.

In theory, everyone should be on board. The fiscal conservatives should want it, since negative externalities are a violation of the non-aggression principle, and taxes are the least intrusive way to encourage change, it's basically delegating the specifics of the change to the market. It is consistent with their principles to want it. It seems like the easiest way to potentially get the most people on board.

I also genuinely believe it's the best solution most of the time. The market is ingenious as long as prices accurately reflect costs and benefits.

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#23

Post by alpaca128 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

swiley wrote: post #4

dheera wrote: post #2

"Mobile phone case made with 3D printing, using recycled plastic." I do a lot of 3D printing and I always feel bad every time I have a bad print or design error and need to throw it in the trash. I really hope we can see some of these filaments on the market soon especially considering how popular 3D printing is becoming.

PLA can be recycled with near perfect efficiency and is available today. Also it's extremely biodegradable so throwing it out isn't the end of the world.

No, it's not. Despite what store pages love to tell you at every corner, PLA does not degrade by itself. It requires exposure to 60+ degrees Celsius for at least 6 months. Good luck building recycling plants handling this in an environmentally-friendly and economical way.

Don't throw out PLA, it's barely less problematic than other materials.

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#24

Post by 8note » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:38 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #13

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #7

Plastic recycling seems heavily motivated by emotion and virtue signaling. In reality, only about 5% of our crude oil use goes towards plastic. If we rolled out EVs, and then just burned all the plastic trash (using waste-to-energy plants), we would still be far ahead. The biggest challenges with plastics are hormone disruption, and microplastics (particularly in the 3rd world without sufficient landfill or W2E infra…

? Oil being used to make plastics was never a problem. Oil is not evil. It's the Co2 bit that's a problem. The problem you missed was at least to some extent recycling: we can't reuse the material at all, and while theoretically burning is practical, we still don't separate everything and burning still leaves a byproduct that has to be buried. I suggest the alternative is going to have to be something that truly disi…

Burying it as is makes it a carbon sink.

If we take plant, turn them to plastic that doesn't regards quickly, then bury them, we're sequestering that co2

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#25

Post by specialist » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:39 PM UTC

orev wrote: post #16

AtlasBarfed wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic disposal is a clear example of the failure of current economics. It's clearly bad for the environment and has long term costs, but there basically isn't any way economics to calculate that or incent it to not be done. So IMO, recycling is an exploratory exercise in seeing if we can socially engineer behavior that is "better". The cynic would say "it doesn't", but I could argue civilization is built on short t…

There definitely is a way to deal with this in economics: taxes. If you tax the companies making the plastics, the price will go up, and they have an incentive to do things differently. Taxes are a crucial pillar of even a purely capitalist society, it’s just that they are not easy to implement politically.

I read u/AtlasBarfed's point being that we don't have a proper way to put a price on the externalities.

To your point, onerously high taxes could largely remove plastics from the waste stream, mooting the need to determine the cost.

I'd like to go even further. Incentives and prizes and grants and whatever-it-takes to find alternatives. eg Bulk pills in plant-based baggies, instead of monthly oversized labeled bottles and caps.

Nudge the culture and expectations. Every little bit would help. Because better is better.

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#26

Post by jvanderbot » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:40 PM UTC

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #7

Plastic recycling seems heavily motivated by emotion and virtue signaling. In reality, only about 5% of our crude oil use goes towards plastic. If we rolled out EVs, and then just burned all the plastic trash (using waste-to-energy plants), we would still be far ahead. The biggest challenges with plastics are hormone disruption, and microplastics (particularly in the 3rd world without sufficient landfill or W2E infra…

I believe plastic recycling is not motivated by oil use primarily. I believe it is motivated by trash accumulation in oceans and the food chain (microplastics). There are a ton of areas of the world where plastic just piles up.

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#27

Post by specialist » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

ratsmack wrote: post #12

>plant-based What they're based from isn't the problem, it's chemicals added to the base, such as chlorine compounds, that is the problem.

Please say more. My efforts to buy least processed cotton and wood pulp products have been largely unsuccessful. I don't need my toilet paper or t-shirts to be white.

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#28

Post by lionsdan » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #20

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #7

Plastic recycling seems heavily motivated by emotion and virtue signaling. In reality, only about 5% of our crude oil use goes towards plastic. If we rolled out EVs, and then just burned all the plastic trash (using waste-to-energy plants), we would still be far ahead. The biggest challenges with plastics are hormone disruption, and microplastics (particularly in the 3rd world without sufficient landfill or W2E infra…

Do you have any source for the 5% stat? I don't mistrust you, but it would be nice to "see it with my own eyes" to be confident enough to use it in conversations with others.

"Plastics production accounts for about 4 percent of global oil production. That’s according to figures for 2012, so now it may well be higher."

https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/How-Much-Crude-Oi...

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#29

Post by gbear605 » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:42 PM UTC

jariel wrote: post #13

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #7

Plastic recycling seems heavily motivated by emotion and virtue signaling. In reality, only about 5% of our crude oil use goes towards plastic. If we rolled out EVs, and then just burned all the plastic trash (using waste-to-energy plants), we would still be far ahead. The biggest challenges with plastics are hormone disruption, and microplastics (particularly in the 3rd world without sufficient landfill or W2E infra…

? Oil being used to make plastics was never a problem. Oil is not evil. It's the Co2 bit that's a problem. The problem you missed was at least to some extent recycling: we can't reuse the material at all, and while theoretically burning is practical, we still don't separate everything and burning still leaves a byproduct that has to be buried. I suggest the alternative is going to have to be something that truly disi…

Oil on its own is still not great, because of the extraction methods that cause environmental harm, but it’s definitely better than the CO2-related issues from burning it.

Re: New plant-based plastics can be chemically recycled with near-perfect efficiency

#30

Post by ArkanExplorer » Sat, Feb 20, 2021, 8:44 PM UTC

cjblomqvist wrote: post #20

ArkanExplorer wrote: post #7

Plastic recycling seems heavily motivated by emotion and virtue signaling. In reality, only about 5% of our crude oil use goes towards plastic. If we rolled out EVs, and then just burned all the plastic trash (using waste-to-energy plants), we would still be far ahead. The biggest challenges with plastics are hormone disruption, and microplastics (particularly in the 3rd world without sufficient landfill or W2E infra…

Do you have any source for the 5% stat? I don't mistrust you, but it would be nice to "see it with my own eyes" to be confident enough to use it in conversations with others.

https://www.bpf.co.uk/press/Oil_Consumption

"In Europe, it is estimated that between 4–6% of oil and gas is used for producing plastics."

- British Plastics Federation

It varies from country to country, and in the USA natural gas is the primary input instead of oil. Some gas or oil could be consumed by the plant, not actually ending up in the final product.