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Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

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Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#41
I'm bidding against people who will work for $10/hour or less and do really good work.

I rather doubt that. Nobody does really good work at that rate, not in this field. Cheap programmers do legendarily shoddy work on projects of any scale, and the employers worth working for know that.

Offer great work at a fair wage, and you'll be fine.

To paraphrase Howard Taylor, if you want to succeed as a freelancer, you need to be (A) the very best at what you do, (B) a great communicator, and (C) everyone's favorite person to work with. And I'd add that you need to be able to prove to a prospective employer that you are those things.

My strategy starting out has been to communicate relentlessly and deliver spectacularly. Really understand a client's needs and ask a lot of questions (and make a lot of comments) about a project before even putting in a bid. Do tiny $50 trial contracts well and quickly, and then offer to finish the job at a fair price. Always respond to messages the same day. Always get working software into the customer's hands as fast as possible, and polish the living daylights out of it jointly.

If you're awesome and people know it, nobody will want to hire the $10/hr crowd when they could get you.

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#42
I'm on the other end (hire folks remotely). New folks are impossible to hire because there's no way to judge how much you do in an hour.

If people have past projects I can see: "they built X app for Y price." But if you're new, all I see is an hourly rate, which means nothing.

You can solve this 2 ways

1) lower your rate so low that someone hires you, and build up your experience so you can charge more

2) show examples of your work, with prices. "I built this. If you wanted a site just like this, it would cost you $XXXX (XX hours)".

No one does the latter. I wish they would.

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#43
post #32

While folks (particular Jason) are giving you excellent advice, can I take this from another angle? A $20 bill rate does not mean you are getting $20 per hour. Not even close. You have to factor in all the non-billable parts of consulting, like writing proposals, educating these clients that $10/hr providers will likely not lead to project success, and handholding them through the project because they'll likely need…

The "market for lemons" paper was not about the average quality of the market---it was about the selection effects generated when market participants cannot judge quality. Within a online labor market, there are platform-imposed features that reduce information asymmetries & make relative comparisons possible e.g., tests, feedback, verified records of billed hours. The informational problem is much worse without an i…

I agree with everything you say, but still believe that these sites are markets for lemons. The information asymmetries are still severe enough to compromise the overall utility of the market. (If they weren't, this thread would not exist.)

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#44
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you've done this in the past, but would you mind explaining how to get clients in the "old - or new-fashioned ways without a marketplace site"?

You network. You build relationships. You go to meetups and meet interesting people, swap connections, swap leads. You get strong introductions, you follow up, you build client relationships. They like you, they trust you, they want to do business with you, and they're willing to pay 4 or 5 figure sums for the privilege because you sell them more than work: you sell them peace of mind. http://swombat.com/2011/2/24/pa…

All of the above, plus building an online presence in your area of choice. It is both a good way to make weak ties that turn into strong ties, and a good way for folks to find you when you're not actively networking.

Blogging and community participation (HN, etc) is my best source of consulting leads next to personal recommendations (and it is often a friendcatcher which caught the person doing the recommending).

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#45
OP: > I'm bidding against people who will work for $10/hour or less and do really good work.

Repeated response: > No, you aren't. No programmer does good work for $10/hour or less.

The implication: We are obviously worth more than $10/hour, and the problem is just that employers don't know that or can't find us.

This is a dangerous economic oversimplification. It implies that you just need to keep doing the same thing, but advertise better. That is not the problem here.

Yes, the work you do produces a great deal of actual wealth for your employers, more wealth than is generated by the middle manager they pay $50/hour. Similarly, fresh water is much more valuable to me than an iPhone, yet I can buy hundreds of gallons of water for the price of an iPhone.

We have had several decades during which the vast majority of the worldwide supply of programming talent was excluded from the hiring pool. Even within the U.S., a programmer located in certain states and cities has been able to command a higher wage on that basis. When you have been the beneficiary of artificial scarcity and consequential producer surplus [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_surplus], it is easy to proudly and mistakenly relate your economic value with your actual value.

Don't get depressed when you see your work performed for $10/hour. You have not grown less talented or even less unique than you used to be; you had simply overestimated your uniqueness based on confounded experimental data. The great news is that in the meantime there has been someone exactly like you, someone who happened to exist in a different geography, whose wage has now gone up to $10/hour.

The only fix is niche work. Make yourself more unique. This won't work as well as it used to, since non-Americans can learn new skills too, but that is how capitalism works.

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#46
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure if you've done this in the past, but would you mind explaining how to get clients in the "old - or new-fashioned ways without a marketplace site"?

You network. You build relationships. You go to meetups and meet interesting people, swap connections, swap leads. You get strong introductions, you follow up, you build client relationships. They like you, they trust you, they want to do business with you, and they're willing to pay 4 or 5 figure sums for the privilege because you sell them more than work: you sell them peace of mind. http://swombat.com/2011/2/24/pa…

"you sell them more than work: you sell them peace of mind."

This is the key to freelancing in general, as my father always tells me.(freelance photographer in the Middle East for almost 40 years: http://gustavoferrari.com/).

Whether it's online or off, if you can convince your clients that you can get the job DONE, with no excuses or delays, they will come back again and again. They want to be able to send you work, and forget about it, confident that you will come through.

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#47

Absolutely. Just make a point of never competing with the $10/hr crowd. Take a minute and read a few of those cheap bids. Do they inspire confidence? If you were an employer, would you honestly believe that the person who wrote that bid is capable of building the thing you're trying to build? Of course not. They all sound like a bunch of desperate children trying to get away with something. If you want to take work f…

I have to agree. When it ultimately comes down to it, you shouldn't be competing with the $10/hr crowd. Clients that understand the importance of good design and solid code knows that it costs money and they're willing to pay for it. Clients that think $10/hr is a normal rate are probably bad clients with an unrealistic expectation of how much work it takes to produce a good website. They'll be late to pay and double…

Do you mind sharing the name of some of these agencies?

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#48
post #32

While folks (particular Jason) are giving you excellent advice, can I take this from another angle? A $20 bill rate does not mean you are getting $20 per hour. Not even close. You have to factor in all the non-billable parts of consulting, like writing proposals, educating these clients that $10/hr providers will likely not lead to project success, and handholding them through the project because they'll likely need…

I'm not sure if you've done this in the past, but would you mind explaining how to get clients in the "old - or new-fashioned ways without a marketplace site"?

Currently the shortest path that I can see is to go deep into iOS or Android programming, write a program or two, publish them in the respective app store, build a basic website to promote yourself (i.e. make an online portfolio i.e. just describe the programs you wrote).

Then go after iOS and Android gigs. Currently demand is vastly greater than supply and both platforms are growing, so it's likely to be true for some time.

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#49

Absolutely. Just make a point of never competing with the $10/hr crowd. Take a minute and read a few of those cheap bids. Do they inspire confidence? If you were an employer, would you honestly believe that the person who wrote that bid is capable of building the thing you're trying to build? Of course not. They all sound like a bunch of desperate children trying to get away with something. If you want to take work f…

Exactly. Last year I had to choose between a 600 lawyer and a 6k lawyer, guess whom I went with? The 6k lawyer, because even though I am not a lawyer, I could tell the $600 dude was just rambling and did not even understand the seriousness of my case (or maybe he just didn't care)

Re: Ask HN: Do Americans stand a chance on freelance sites?

#50
One thing I haven't seen mentioned yet is culture. I have hired people on elance and sometimes the simplest things trip you up because of cultural differences. There are even significant cultural difference between California and Louisiana, let alone between the US and a another country overseas.
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