Live data from Hacker News

Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

axios.com

611–620 of 864 posts

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are wrong. All outgoing email is being scanned for sensitive information in plain text or attachments. This is standard practice in every corporation and something you are being warned about when being on-boarded as a new-joiner.

why would she email it from her corp account to various accounts instead of emailing it to her personal account or just uploading it directly to some personal drive account

> all outgoing email

And of course this same applies to file uploads. Again, this is standard practice in any company with IT security.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is just arguing semantics. It can both be true that she was the initiator of her departure, and legally it's a firing.

It's not semantics. They didn't work "out that exit date with her in that email". They told her she was no longer an employee effective immediately. That is a firing, legally and otherwise.

I disagree. "Meet my three impossible demands or I'll quit" is not clearly "not initiating my departure".

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#613

You will learn a lot about Margaret Mitchell's firing by simply reading this piece she shared publicly on Twitter: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ERi2crDToYhYjEjxRoOzO-uO... A few punchlines: "Every moment where Jeff Dean and Megan Kacholia do not take responsibility for their actions is another moment where the company as a whole stands by silently as if to intentionally send the horrifying message that Dr. Geb…

> In short, she was getting paid handsomely while calling out her bosses by name and taking them through the dirt I think their job was just that: call out the company (and others) on AI ethics issues - I don't see how it comes as a surprise to you that a person in such a role is also concerned about ethics in general, or the ethics of AI ethics at Google, so to speak.

The way I see it, so much about this hassle seems to point towards some fundamental misunderstanding about what their job was - that perhaps they believed, like you say, that their job was to call out the company and others on AI ethics issues, but that the management who formed and funded that team believed that their job was something else - I think that what Google wanted from that team was to do research on applied methods on how to make the models less biased and on process improvements on how to deploy them in a more ethical manner - i.e. to work on technical solutions to mitigate the ethical problems they identify, to enable Google to achieve the same goals through ML but with less ethical "side-effects" so to speak.

For a specific example, I presume Google would be happy if the team produced methods that help facial recognition generalize better to different ethnic groups, or methods that identify what specific gaps in training data should be filled to cover a diverse target audience; but apparently did not consider highlighting problems where the only solution is "don't deploy such models" and social activism goals as their intended job.

So when the push came to shove, this misalignment of goals had to be addressed; either by one or another changing their goals (which seems to have been unacceptable for both Google and Timnit&co) or by firing/quitting.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#614
post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, by legal, I meant, "within the terms of your employment agreement."

> The assumption that corporations, not courts, decide legality seems inane to me. The law > employee agreement.

https://legaldictionary.net/contract-law/

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#615
If we are to believe the memo that Google wrote about their investigation for firing her, then it seems pretty cut and dry. Either she should have tried going through official channels first, then be smart in her own investigation, or google is lying.

The truth is probably somewhere in between.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#616
post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always wonder how smart, driven people aren't able (willing?) to cope with these situations.

Money isn’t usually enough. I walked away from a job paying more than $1m/yr (to be clear - I am not rich or financially independent, the stock is still illiquid atm and I live in a 400sqft in-law unit). You need satisfaction overall with your environment. I kept asking myself how much a year of my life was worth and it turns out - unless it’s fucking insane money ($10mil+ liquid) then I can’t suffer through somethin…

Unless we are talking about a job with inherently long term health risk and/or ilegal activity with prosecution risk I would be willing to put up a year or two in order to secure a life long financial independence. 2M USD is enough to confortable spend the rest of your life doing what you really want to do.

But hey, maybe is me

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to an Axios scoop from Jan, she was running a script to find emails in her Inbox related to Gebru and sending thousands of files "to multiple external parties". https://i.imgur.com/fDV9kKV.png

I mean multiple external parties could mean two parties and technically not be a lie. It could also be multiple external services that she has an account at and still not technically be a lie. I guess someone could not be specifying more clearly how nefarious the goings on because of legal reasons, but it could also be that they're not specifying more clearly because then everyone would make the pffft noise and point…

Sending it to two parties is still just as bad as sending it to 200 parties...

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s pretty cool we can just take Google at it’s word after a 5 week investigation with literally no details coming out. Google also decided to drop this bombshell on a Friday the same day they are announcing a rebranded ethics team. It’s clear they wanted to bury this story and the leaders of the old team. I for one don’t plan to in any way give Google the benefit of the doubt here...

Some of these "AI ethics researchers" seem like wingnuts, and their profession appears to serve more of a PR purpose than a business purpose. What am I missing? Why are they so essential? Are these people the canaries in the coal mine, or do they simply exist because of paranoia and political correctness?

It's a bit of a tragedy to be honest. We/I lived through both developing social networking and big data, and it's pretty clear that the community made huge mistakes that both hurt loads of people and we can't really take back or clear up at this point. Bad things happened to innocent people. Bad people got power over good people and did bad things with it.

AI has at least as much potential to be dangerous, ethical constraints on it are important when you consider the failure of common sense and community good will for SN and BD. However, every berk going latched onto the idea that they could write some sort of rubbish about "applying type 1 and type 2 thinking in AI design" or "why robots can't really be people" and have founded community dedicated to promoting themselves and getting money at the expense of insight and real work and real constraints developed by people who know what they are on about and can really help.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#619

“After conducting a review of this manager’s conduct, we confirmed that there were multiple violations of our code of conduct, as well as of our security policies, which included the exfiltration of confidential business-sensitive documents and private data of other employees,” a Google spokesman said in a statement. This feels pretty cut and dry to me. Meg exported business material from the company. That a fire-abl…

It’s pretty cool we can just take Google at it’s word after a 5 week investigation with literally no details coming out. Google also decided to drop this bombshell on a Friday the same day they are announcing a rebranded ethics team. It’s clear they wanted to bury this story and the leaders of the old team. I for one don’t plan to in any way give Google the benefit of the doubt here...

> It’s pretty cool we can just take Google at it’s word

Err... yes? Google is an employer which has the right to terminate employees as it wants. It doesn't owe you an explanation.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#620
post #417

"Firing @timnitGebru created a domino effect of trauma for me and the rest of the team, and I believe we are being increasingly punished for that trauma." Wow. These activists are truly living in an alternate reality.

Your colleague leaving their job is not a traumatic experience, I'm sorry
Post reply on HN