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Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

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Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#521

Post by solipsism »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #476
solipsism wrote: post #410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

have an ideal in mind that goes beyond that 'growth at all costs' stage in which the company could actually increase the health of its ecosystem. Ideal is right, because that is idealistic to the point of naivete. The second a company takes its eye off the ball and starts trying to better the world, its competitors swoop in and take over. The right answer is for a society to create laws that ensure the behavior we wa…

See, that looks to me like naivete about the behaviour of the regulatory apparatus. Ultimately, a civilisation runs on both rules and tools, and while we clearly have opposite biases about where the low-hanging fruit are, I think we also both know it's not really true that there are zero improvements to be made in either realm. I'd be happy to share my scepticism about attempts to reform the 'rules' side of the equat…

Wow, this is a good example of sounds-smart nonsense. Deepak Chopra style.

> The only time one player can dominate a limited number of niches is when there are few niches to begin with.

What?? What are you even saying? It's an entire world filled with niches. There's no sense in which niches are limited. How does it ever make sense to talk about "a limited number of niches"??

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#522

Post by wpietri »

JamesBarney wrote: post #421
wpietri wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that depends on whether you think an "Ethical AI" group's job is as window dressing or to actually make an ethical impact. If the former, then they probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place; PR people are cheaper and more tractable. If the latter, then there's only so long you can ask good people to stay quiet. Enabling ethical failure is also an ethical failure. Your analogies don't really work, I'…

> I suppose that depends on whether you think an "Ethical AI" group's job is as window dressing or to actually make an ethical impact. 1. You can make an ethical impact without applying external pressure. Usually through internal channels. That is their expectations when they hire you. 2. Do you really think "apply external pressure via bad publicity on companynwhen necessary leaking internal documents" was in their…

Point 1 depends on the internal channels. If you have never had the experience of management not listening to you, I congratulate you on your luck and/or your youth.

As to point 2, I think that if Google didn't put "make a public stink if necessary" in the job description itself, they should have known it was part of the deal. You can't hire people for their independence and their ethics and then not expect them to be independent and ethical.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#523

Post by monocasa »

JamesBarney wrote: post #513
monocasa wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Did google lie about a verifiable fact in the Gebru firing? I would doubt that. If you could find something like that I would seriously reconsider how I viewed Google's statements. They literally denied firing her to begin with, stating that they had instead had simply accepted her resignation. > ... And your conclusion from this is Google is lying and she didn't exfiltrate data? No I'm saying there's probably more…

> They literally denied firing her to begin with, stating that they had instead had simply accepted her resignation. Gebru sent a conditional resignation(ultimatum) letter to Google. Google rejected those conditions and accepted her resignation. Whether or not you count that as resigned or fired is a definitional issue. But legally there are many jurisdictions that consider an ultimatum letter a resignation. The gene…

> But legally there are many jurisdictions that consider an ultimatum letter a resignation.

California is not one of those jurisdictions. She was fired. That is a verifiable fact.

> This might be entirely possible, but this also gave them reason to terminate her so it seems like a very bad move.

Unless she was working under the assumption that they already were going to fire her.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#524

Post by wpietri »

D13Fd wrote: post #448
wpietri wrote: post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose that depends on whether you think an "Ethical AI" group's job is as window dressing or to actually make an ethical impact. If the former, then they probably shouldn't be doing it in the first place; PR people are cheaper and more tractable. If the latter, then there's only so long you can ask good people to stay quiet. Enabling ethical failure is also an ethical failure. Your analogies don't really work, I'…

Forcing the company to comply with legal standards is often literally the job of a corporate attorney in an employment or compliance department. And the primary concern isn't to avoid "going to jail," it's avoiding civil liability (for employment) or regulatory action (for compliance). Offering guidance on ethical behavior helps to avoid both of those issues. Whistleblower statutes are an enforcement mechanism that p…

> Forcing the company to comply with legal standards is often literally the job of a corporate attorney in an employment or compliance department.

Compliance departments may include attorneys, but plenty of people aren't. The force comes not because of their attorney-ness, but because they're part of a department tasked with enforcement. Lawyers in general definitely are not at a company to enforce the law.

> And the primary concern isn't to avoid "going to jail,"

Allow me to introduce you to the notion of hyperbole.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#525

Post by mleonhard »

Aunche wrote: post #417

"Firing @timnitGebru created a domino effect of trauma for me and the rest of the team, and I believe we are being increasingly punished for that trauma." Wow. These activists are truly living in an alternate reality.

You use the term "these activists" and describe a problem of two people. I think you are trying to imply that activists in general have the problem. That would be the "hasty generalization" fallacy [0].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Hasty_generalization

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#526

Post by pseudalopex »

JamesBarney wrote: post #480
pseudalopex wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But did she release documents to the press? Exfiltration of confidential documents could mean just forwarding emails to herself or an employment lawyer.

I don't know if she's released them to the press. What's your best guess for why she was running a script to exfiltrate a bunch of e-mails related to Gebru? Mine is it involves releasing them to the press.

Who said she ran a script to exfiltrate a bunch of emails related to Gebru? The Google statements I saw weren't so specific.

She allegedly copied the documents a month ago. The simplest explanation of why they aren't public is she didn't want them to be.

I don't think it's useful to speculate about her motives when we don't even know what she did specifically.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#527

Post by Clewza313 »

tantalor wrote: post #325
dragonwriter wrote: post #289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But if she thought that she was untouchable, She was complaining about her peer and co-lead being fired by top management, going around their shared immediate management, dishonestly and in retaliation for internally highlighting problems. I think the one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that she didn't see herself as invulnerable. > so easily getting caught red-handed “so easily caught red-handed”? It took 5…

> she didn't see herself as invulnerable Yet: Dr. Gebru and I had just been promoted to “Staff” Research Scientist, which is meaningful in the world of STEM, with the sort of honor associated with becoming tenured. We had thought it meant a certain amount of job security.

Staff at Google is L6, which is a mid-high rank at best. For comparison, fresh grads are typically L3, while a Fellow is L12.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#528

Post by underseacables »

Aunche wrote: post #417

"Firing @timnitGebru created a domino effect of trauma for me and the rest of the team, and I believe we are being increasingly punished for that trauma." Wow. These activists are truly living in an alternate reality.

Yep. Here it comes .... https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26199072

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#529

Post by Aunche »

mleonhard wrote: post #525
Aunche wrote: post #417

"Firing @timnitGebru created a domino effect of trauma for me and the rest of the team, and I believe we are being increasingly punished for that trauma." Wow. These activists are truly living in an alternate reality.

You use the term "these activists" and describe a problem of two people. I think you are trying to imply that activists in general have the problem. That would be the "hasty generalization" fallacy [0]. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy#Hasty_generalization

I'm referring to "her and the rest of her team," though to be fair, they may not feel the same way.

Re: Margaret Mitchell fired from Google

#530

Post by calylex »

This sounds like a poem she wrote https://www.ted.com/talks/margaret_mitchell_how_we_can_build...

How does one get to lead such a high caliber team at Google AI with background in Linguistics of all things?

What are some of accomplishments this person has achieved, beyond being from one or many oppressed victim group(s) that Google needed to hire to fend off lack of diversity claims?

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